One of my commenters made a very interesting point this weekend.
I applaud Axel Brauns decision to raise the minimum age to perform in his movies to 21, and for the record I seriously doubt that he will have any problems as a result. But technically is it legal? Can you deny employment to someone who is otherwise completely qualified based on age?
As my reader pointed out, if you are making MILF movies you have the right to cast MILFs to fulfill your artistic vision but to make a statement that you are not hiring anyone for any reason under the age of 21 would be pretty cut and dry age discrimination.
Don’t get me wrong I have recently come to the conclusion myself that maybe 21 isnt a bad idea to be legally mandated, in which case it would not be discriminatory from a legal standpoint. I think Axel Braun is absolutely making a smart decision.
Interesting question I think.
105 Responses
Raising The Age To 21 Is It Legal? http://t.co/ljL2obq1vW
Not in America technically.
well if they claim porn is art than yes it would be legal. but if porn is just another job like a janitor than no. but we know where that put the porn industry. they have to allow it because if they didnt they could not claim freedom of speech.
I ran titty bars on and off for 30+ years. I could deny employment to anyone I wanted to BECAUSE they weren’t employee’s, they were private contractors. One of the clubs I worked for hired emancipated 17 year olds and as soon as I found out I QUIT. LOL
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For the record, I applaud his decision also, think that a 21 year age would be a smart legal decision, and don’t imagine he’ll have any problems either. But, that’s because authorities don’t seem to give a crap about the porn industry and because its unlikely that an 18-year-old Jenna wannabe is going to run to the ACLU because she was denied work based solely on her age.
But …. if she did — if the next Sasha Grey, who was very bright, very articulate and very determined – wanted to make a name for herself, my guess is the ACLU would take it on (they’ve gone to bat for the right of high school kids to wear obnoxious t shirts to school) and I bet they’d win if the only reason for denying employment is that Axel doesn’t think anyone under the age of 21 can make this decision.
I’m all for what Axel did but I also know the sales numbers and barely legal is big business and won’t go away anytime soon, no matter how ethical it may be. Teen porn is just far to profitable.
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It should be 21, 18 is too young to make a choice that will affect the rest of their lives. As far as the barely legal niche, its the fantasy business not to the reality business. So a girl young looking girl can play 18. Look at little lupe, the girl is 26 and looks maybe 18.
@bt…… yes I think if the porn industry is going to do one illegal thing this would be the one thing to do….but im still doubting the illegality….if it was burger king yes but movies im not so sure….hmmm… im thinking its very similar to mainstream movies that choose above 18 year olds to play underage roles so they don’t need to pay for tutors and comply with the rules associated with hiring minors (more breaks, shorter work days etc)….. the argument can be made that your artistic niche is age 25 to 35 year olds no?……
@bt…….I understand what your saying about making a blanket statement but there are also many companies that you just know you wouldn’t be hired at due to age….for example Abercrombie & Fitch…they may except your application for a sales position but you know if your over 40 something you wont be hired….this is implied by looking at who they hire…don’t they have a right to chose who they want to represent their company and image?….they cant say they choose the best qualified candidate knowing the stack of 40 year old applications proved that untrue…..
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typing to fast and making mistakes “accept”
“you just know you wouldn’t be hired at due to age….for example Abercrombie & Fitch…”
Think maybe this could explain why I haven’t heard back from Hooter’s about that waitress position I applied for?
You guys are missing the big picture – it is illegal to even ASK a person’s age on an application form these days! That is why they put in “loaded” questions like asking what year you graduated – in order to narrow down your age w/o asking.
This was answered long before it was ever brought up. Also, whoever said that those under 21 wouldn’t be hired by the companies to do jobs other than acting?
Refer to the Age Discrimination in Employment Act of 1967:
“It shall not be unlawful for an employer, employment agency, or labor organization-
(1) to take any action otherwise prohibited under subsections (a), (b), (c), or (e) of this section where age is a bona fide occupational qualification reasonably necessary to the normal operation of the particular business, or where the differentiation is based on reasonable factors other than age, or where such practices involve an employee in a workplace in a foreign country, and compliance with such subsections would cause such employer, or a corporation controlled by such employer, to violate the laws of the country in which such workplace is located;”
http://www.eeoc.gov/laws/statutes/adea.cfm
You will never see a judge rule that pornographers are not hiring younger actors and actresses. Age would be considered a bona fide occupational qualification reasonably necessary to the normal operation of the particular businesses considering that it involves inserting penises into people.
18 is the MINIMUM legal requirement to perform in adult film…the producer aka creator is absolutely within both his 1st amendment rights and standard employer rights together or separately….to raise that bar as producer deems fit. It can’t be lowered..it can be raised.
No different than any firm asking for 3years experience in addition to educational qualifications to get the interview. They raised the bar for applicants…good luck crying foul because you don’t have experience yet.
Braun has made public his minimum….if someone can prove he is violating this standard to favor a performer or type or even agency…then they might be able to sue…otherwise they are shit out luck.
No different than fetish, say natural hair, no makeup, MILF, BDSM, no tattoos..yes cover the tat…oh six toes…lets get that one!
@Lurking
Exactly. Do you have any idea how hard it is for an 18-year old to get a job playing Santa at the mall?
Dirty Bob is correct. Agreed you’ll never see a judge rule on this because no actress will ever file a suit. However, the EEOC ruling sort of proves the point. It says “where age is a bona fide occupational qualification reasonably necessary to the normal operation of the particular business.”
If the state has determined that 18 is the legal age at which someone can work in porn, their orifices are in working order, they look good on film, and they’re willing to perform as required, how would the fact that they’re 18 disqualify them from being up to the task – under the law? And don’t say experience – there may be 18 year old girls who are far more sexually experienced than some 21 year old girls. Or some 31 year old girls.
Good for you..were you in Nj? Judge there there did my dying dad a favor and emancipated me at 15..vs trying family courts for custody. Lol it wasn’t till many years later that I learned he emancipated all kinds of 16/17 year old runaways to work the strip joints up and down the shore.
@Lurk –
Nice points!!!
@CPan – Umm.. Or a female for that matter. LOL!! Ho, ho, ho.
One of the situations concerning discrimination laws that truly annoys the living shit out of me has to do with rental laws.
If I invest $800K to purchase an apartment building, I don’t even have the right to rent out units to certain people.
If someone wants to rent an apartment in the building that I OWN and I refuse to rent to them for whatever reason or just because I don’t like the shoes they’re wearing, then they can turn around and sue me on the grounds of discrimination.
Sorry, but that is fucking ridiculous and I hate it.
@Lacey
Teenage transsexuals have been fighting an uphill battle for years to get a job as the mall Santa. We must not forget their fight for equality in the work place.
Could a producer legally require his models “be at least 18 y/o AND have 3 years experience (in porn, not just sexual experience)”, thereby making his min age 21? The same happens in fields like truck drivers, etc.
Nice. Just go ahead and make it 500x even more complicated. Thanks.
Hahaha. 😉
Before there was Hooters..there was..Nums in Long Branch Nj back in the 70s, I’m sure other places too..it had the exact same uniform, the owner initially used overstocked junior sized athletic clothing from a NYC warehouse.. where they found the right color to overlay the white logo.
Hooters wings became famous, now its “Tilted Kilt” at lunch and after the mall with the wife 🙂 they wear tams, half shirts and kilt looking cheer skirts, w/spanks…just cus they make the uniform in my size doesn’t mean they’re gonna let me on the team:) nice to know the world keeps going round
@Hunter –
That is what is referred to as a loophole and it’s absolutely genius if you *really* think about it!!! Nice job. 🙂
@Lacey
We cannot forget about the little person who can only get the job as the elf. 🙂
@Lacey: Thanks, but I just don’t see a future for me in law. I’m still holding out for that Hooter’s Job.
@Lurking: TIlted Kilt is great, but I look terrible in plaid.
Hahaha. That actually made me lol. 😀
@Bob
Yes on the application…now you’re in my ballpark..we deal with minor labor all the time. Try running restaurants w all the normal minor restrictions then add municipal (driving)curfews..Trust me we spend lots on lawyers to stay current..lots on scheduling to juggle this one and that one once they are hired so we don’t get fined.
You don’t ask them…you post your restrictions…it’s against the law for an applicant to lie and give false information telling you they are qualified when they are not…ie, they can work the posted hours or meet the minimum standards. The minute an employee becomes a problem..the 1st thing that happens..app comes out…info gets verified with POST employment documentation…the papers where you fill out ID, social verification ..did you know you can be fined if you turn in too many incorrect ss# to IRS because they don’t like not knowing where to put the FICA we are sending them…yes we got fined in addition to the money we withheld and paid…so any discrepancy with application..where they state qualifications but no age they state y/n to felony convictions …and they do lie…thats when we catch the 13 year olds trying to work a 4hr shift at minimum wage…with an adult standing there lying in our face telling us yeah Joey washed dishes on a commercial dishwasher before!
Let Diane Duke or anyone ever try to cry about a 2257 to me..lol
Had five lawyers here yesterday…freespeech is protected…the minute you try to sell that expression it has become free enterprise and all the rules of commerce apply…oops
@Hunter –
If Hooters doesn’t hire you then you should also try applying at Twin Peaks. It’s all the rage these days in the big boob cleavage business!
I’m not too sure about their benefits package and they might not hold wet t-shirt contests like Hooters, but you may be able to make some good money depending on how much cleavage you show? I bet a nipple slip could get you a big tip! Haha……..
“Had five lawyers here yesterday…freespeech is protected…the minute you try to sell that expression it has become free enterprise and all the rules of commerce apply…oops.”
What is it recently with commenters coming up with the best points I’ve heard in a while? For some reason, I had never thought of it that simply before, but it makes perfect sense.
If the purpose of creating something is, whether it’s a computer or a porno, to make a profit then all commerce rules would apply as well…. How interesting…..
How is everyone bringing up all these good points on a fucking MONDAY?
@ Lacey. The rental market is a weird one. On the one hand, there are all these rules around discrimination. On the other hand, it seems like you can discriminate based on income, which is a way of saying discriminate on class.
I own several single family rentals in a blue collar part of town. My tenants are always working class. I get calls all the time from people asking if I will accept a Section 8 (government subsidized) tenant. I’ve always been willing to rent to them because, hey, I know I’m going to get part of the rent cuz its coming from the government. As opposed to college kids who are going to spend the rent money on beer.
But apparently landlords don’t have to accept Section 8 if they don’t want to. At least not where I live because the Section 8 folks are desperate.
It’s odd.
It’s frustrating to see ppl say 18 is too young to make a lifelong decision. At 18 u can get a tattoo, join the military, get married, get pregnant… all lifelong decisions. That’s the reason there’s a legal threshold to shoot porn, and its 18. If anyone wants to get that changed, there are ways to petition the govt to do that I’m sure. But randomly picking an age and saying “I think all women are ready at this age” is just obsurd, IMHO.
Oh man Poppy is a sharp old geezer…ran circles around these 4young pups with their tech..he says..so what you can find it in two minutes..used to take me two weeks, now what are you gonna do with it?
The contract lawyer kept going for the contract angles…
The labor guy kept hammering “employee status”…
The constitutional guy kept shouting infringement till we all wanted to strangle him…
The personal Injury guy just kept salivating like a hungry dog…
Poppy asked “do you remember the most important thing you’d ever need to know about law and lawyers?” “Yep, each section of law is designed to protect that interest, in effect creating a system where the game is finding the best rule to argue and win thereby screwing your opponent. So it’s the only way to get paid to fuck people with your clothes on.”
Doesn’t matter I’m now a grandmother…poppy snuck me a fifty like I was still a kid..some things never change.
@Charity
Is that really what he is saying? Is he asking for a regulatory or statutory age change? I don’t agree that he is saying that 18 is too young legally to make this choice…I do hear him saying that..
As a producer it is his experience that waiting three years to 21 will give him a performer he prefers working with. He hasn’t asked any other producers to follow his position despite stating reasons for his convictions.
Is that really any different than a foot fetish announcing a change to MILF?
@BT give me section 8 any day…gladly put in ramps, rails, raised seats and even replaced fridges for access vs replace gutted party damages inside and out! On top of eviction process when the deadbeats don’t pay…it is odd isn’t it… they are overextended that 8 won’t cover them or deluded thinking that the higher rent is gonna pay on same street, or got back theirs on that investment and couldn’t care less about it anymore lol..damn slumlords 🙂
@Charitybangs
I was like you. I’m older now and I’ve learned a whole lot that others don’t teach you. You are about 21, right? You’re still so young! A restriction of 21 is an improvement, but in this industry that is all you can go for. Improvements…
When I was 21 like you I dropped out of college when I was seeking a degree in science to manage clubs I obtained where others who were 18 and over took off their clothes. When I was 21 I was dumb enough to go along with my partners and allow porn to be shot at my properties. Lawyers even told me it was fine because they were making money from it. I was a stupid kid at 21. I knew nothing about the real world. I could have gotten in a lot of trouble, but I thought I was 21 and smarter than most.
About 5 years later I grew up. I decided that maybe I could seek a little more out of my life. Once I got rid of my debts I started my own business TOTALLY away from the adult industry. I was lucky. I count my stars daily for how lucky I was.
You can remove a tattoo. You can get divorced. You can get an abortion. The abortion is confidential too.
You can’t remove the fact that you have had sex on camera for monetary gain. Try working with kids after that. Try getting a lawfirm to hire you. Try being a healthcare professional. Try getting a job as an actress. If that doesn’t work then try babysitting. I managed strip clubs and my close friends stopped letting me babysit their children. I couldn’t even offer them help. They would ask in a group of friends and turn me down to my face. I was the only one with free time too.
I have never met you and I did not know about you until you posted on this site. I apologize, but I wouldn’t hire you. I don’t feel as though you would be right for my company. You’re going to hear that a lot.
Charity, if you want to stay in porn then monetize yourself the best that you can. Start your own companies and make sure you are the sole owner of them. Hire a really good lawyer and make sure you ask them before you make any form of business decision. Trust me, that is worth it.
If not, then have as much fun as you can so you can look back and say it was totally worth it. You’ll need it.
I wish you the best hun. You seem like a person with your heart in the right place. Follow it. If you want to do right, then ask yourself how you can and just go for it!
I love the discussions here when everyone is civil and addresses a subject thoughtfully…thanks guys I have made some changes to help weed out the noise. This is the first post since those changes and i could NOT be happier with the responses. Im happy that I have THE most intelligent readers of all the porn blogs! Thanks Y’all
Section 8 is a different kind of animal. Yes, you get part of your rent paid by the government — (at least in MI anyway) if you collect the renter’s portion and can prove it. That could be a MHSDA rule (the state government agency that administers Section 8 here) but that is the way it works here. Section 8 renters tend to have poor credit (as most poor people do by nature of not having enough to live on) so most landlords in MI won’t accept them. Those that do accept it tend to require a credit check and/or rent the crappiest housing located in the worst neighborhoods. In my area most of the Section 8 housing not specifically reserved for the elderly and disabled is actually city government owned nowadays — the cities where people get shot up left and right due to gang infestation.
I think Axel is a great director, but he will be missing out on a lot of potential talent for his movies by making his Age limit 21. Lets give some current and former examples shall we?
In the former, I’ll give the example of Sasha Grey. Sure she is probably 1 in a million, but at 18 she knew exactly what to do in order to sell her movies, and she was one of the most popular girls in the industry, before she turned 21! Many fail at 18, but I’m sorry if people can fight a War at 18, and smoke cigarettes (which kill most people than a lot of STDs) than Girls should be able to do porn at 18.
Currently, I feel Axel will really miss out on my early 2013 AVN Performer of the Year Choice, Bonnie Rotten. Bonnie is only 20 right now, and doesn’t turn until May 9th, 2014. Sure not that long of a wait, but with her current appeal in the industry, why wouldn’t Axel cast her in his movies? IMHO she seems a lot more mature in her interviews than some of the 25 or 26 year olds in the industry.
My final example will be one of my current rising stars, Staci Silverstone. I don’t think porn has seen a girl enter that was this cute since BiBi Jones made her debut. She has all the looks and ability to star in any of Axel’s movies, and sell out the joint. But no. She’s 18, doesn’t turn 21, until May 15, 2015 and by then who knows if Porn will still even be legal.
My point is, Axel is shooting himself in the foot with this move. Someone else will give young talent a shot that Axel didn’t and while it may not tank his directing career, it will def. affect it in a negative way!
Meant 2014 Performer of the Year. My apologies to Asa!
I hope the changes do make a difference for you. I know sometimes I have went off on people myself so maybe I need to check my temper at the door as well (no, I haven’t been asked to by Mike). Civility is a necessary component in dealing with people nowadays and that is admittedly not my strong point.
Hey i get passionate about my opinions sometimes specially if I feel someone is being harmed but drama for the sake of drama just isnt productive…..when I sat down and read through all of the comments in all of the posts for the last few months it became pretty obvious what i needed to do. for the record nobody has been banned or anything, I simply made some modifications that a radio operator would consider raising the squelch level 😉 It didnt really take much just a few adjustments but the quality of the comments in this thread tells me I did the right things. I appreciate all of you but im not going to let a few small issues run off intelligent and well meaning posters. When I saw an attack on Toby, one of the very few truly honest and good people in this biz it motivated me to get off my ass and ID the problem and fix it. Yall are the best some day id love to get together someplace and raise a glass with y’all
MD, Bonnie Rotten is currently exclusive to Adam and Eve so unless Axel starts making movies for them her age is a moot point. If Axel were making movies for them he would not likely be able to make such a decision anyway, Phil Harvey would be the one deciding who is cast to which movies. I have a feeling that Axel would not cast Bonnie for his projects anyway, her look is too street-tough with all the prison-type tats she has on her body for the type of movies he (and Wicked) makes. I am not familiar with Staci Silverstone (I need to do a Google search) but if she looks like Bibi Jones did at 18-20 (and she is available for him to hire in the first place) then this could be more of an issue.
As for misstating the year I don’t think Asa Akira would be offended. She is popular but she doesn’t seem to be the type that really puts a lot of stock in her awards, she comes across in interviews (the few that she does) as a girl that just wants to make good smut. I was actually surprised that she went to Wicked, she seemed like she was enjoying making BDSM porn and Wicked doesn’t make much of that genre (unless Steve Orenstein intends to start a BDSM division).
Speaking of Asa, now that she and Axel are both at Wicked maybe she will show up in more of his movies.
@mharris
I’ll go along with that as well. I admit that I love animals so I’m predisposed to feed trolls. When I see that sign that says “Don’t feed the bears” then I want nothing more than to feed them a Zagnut.
I think that this is another case of confusing “rights” with business policy.
I can understand a producer choosing not to film girls under 21, that is his discretion. As a business operator, he can hire people as he needs them based on his criteria, and that is fine.
However, the law is pretty clear: at 18 you are an adult, and that is the legal requirement here. If you want to try to raise that to 21, there would be a huge battle because, again, the free speech rights of an adult would be limited.
For those who might try to compare it to being able to enter a bar, that is a somewhat different situation. Bars are licensed establishments via liquor laws, and yes, states can impose minimum age requirements for having access to booze. It is the same manner that the state has the right to issue a drivers license or restrict your permission to drive. It’s a different set of circumstances, there is no free speech right to drink or to drive, those are permissions granted by the state.
Porn, like it or not, is protected free speech art, and at least one recent AG was clearly quoted saying that. The only way you could limit the age at which someone appears in porn would be if the basic laws of the US were changed to move the term “adult” to 21. That would mean no military service until 21, parental responsiblity until 21, and so on. That will just not happen.
You have to stop thinking about it in term of “the industry” and think about it in practical terms. A girl who is 18 years 1 minute can fuck on camera and post it online, and there is absolutely nothing the state can do to stop an adult from enjoying the right to free speech. Everything else is just talk.
@rawalex
There will be no battle.
http://www.eeoc.gov/laws/statutes/adea.cfm
Age restriction laws that go between 18 and 21 would not be disputed in a court of law when dealing with adult film making.
As I’ve said before, the producers can go and shoot all of the films they want and express their free speech. If they want to sell them then they’ll have to adhere to certain criteria. Making money has nothing to do with freedom of expression. If you want paid then you’ll have to do certain things.
That’s a no-brainer.
@bt , lurk, mharris….. As a section 8 recipient in Americas finest city (& most expensive rent per income in the Country)….. I applaud your section 8 insights…..and agree that there are many benifits to rent to those on the program…..you get guaranteed partial rent from the gov, someone to help resolve things if theres a problem and the biggest benifit, the fear of God in your tenent that if they dont hold up their end its most likely they’ll get kicked out of the program they waited so long to get into…..its a win, win, win!…..unfortunately many are fearful of low income people….. No matter how cute we are…..lol
Oh god, this makes me think of 2 of the dumbest laws I’ve seen… of course, all in LA:
-At one point it was perfectly legal to enter a bar at 18, but you could not drink alcohol unless you were 21. The reason it really pissed me off is because they raised the legal age to enter a bar from 18 to 21 like 6 months before my 18th birthday!!! 🙁
(Does that rule still apply to strip clubs?)
-There are legal drive-thru daiquiri stands here, but you are not allowed to have a straw in them while they are in the vehicle. Otherwise, it’s drinking and driving.
(Really? So stupid.)
@hunter…..ahahaha too funny hunter!
Does that mean you’re buying???
I don’t get your point.
I understand fully that producers could choose not to hire under 21, and there would be no age discrimination. That’s not the point. The point is that at 18, adults gain the full right to free speech, and that includes the right to take naked pictures of themselves or to film themselves fucking. It’s pure and simple.
The government cannot enact laws that impair free speech, and that would INCLUDE creating restrictions on how adult material could be created based on the age of legal, consenting adults. It’s pretty simple black letter law.
Remember, free speech is not a privilege or something you get with a permit – it’s a right. Anything that limits the rights for a group to that free speech will get shot down in the SCOTUS every time, without exception.
If you think that’s funny, you should see the pics of me in the outfit… *grin*
@Charity
Sorry…was referring to Braun..not South comments..totally see where your opinion came from now.
@Mike…ya stepped in it again!
I missed it…you really posed government mandated 21? Say it ain’t so.
I get the reasons now that it wouldn’t mean a hill a beans in my life or even my kids life…which is probably why I get the reasons. Back when they meant more than a hill of beans..probably the whole world..those would be fighting words for sure. Character assignation and more.
@Raw
Minors have the right to free speech…there are however restrictions while in the care and control of public education even beyond age 18. I.g. Shirts with graphics deemed offensive may be turned inside out to meet dress code. Students may meet for lawful free speech assembly at designated areas on school grounds outside Instructional times. Many schools no longer offer Boy Scouts or Girls Scouts meeting space as it violates equal opportunity free speech to religious groups Wiccan and prayer groups. This goes all the way down to the elementary age level and school buses too. Search and seizure issues ..all kinds of goodies.
@Lacey
The straw is great..no open container law?
My best friend was pissed when the license and drinking age changed Jan 1st..her Bday is the 4th and I’d already been legal for 6months 🙂 little known fact..you can marry, rent an apt, own businesses & property when emancipated but can not…vote, drive or drink until actually achieving the age of majority.
@laura
Sadly I learned about section8 via my disabled sister, gladly learned from her long term tenancy with my nephew the things that did and didn’t work well on both sides from her mostly. Here they buy houses at foreclosure auction then like in MI they run credit to get highest rent…not realizing…the guy with good credit is on his way down looking for a lower rent…I’d rather help someone already getting assistance, on their way up. Less empty months, less chance of evicting squatters..less turnover & related costs.
A few years ago this guy Greene had us all nuts…buying everything, every month, every auction. We’d all research like crazy, put ducks in arrow for a property and next time add a back up third month had three then we had four..it was ridiculous. Finally someone got really pissed turned Greene in on mortgage fraud..in like 12 states or some crap.
Hunter. He or she could. However, if 3 years experience is part of the criteria and a 21-year-old who is smoking hot but brand new to the business wants to shoot for him, he could not. Because he has established 3 years as a minimum in order to appear as if its not age discrimination. You can’t be too cute by half.
I’ve been a landlord to low income folks for 30 years. Like every landlord, I’ve had a couple of spectacular blowups that make for entertaining dinner party stories. But for the most part, my tenants have been long-term and pretty reliable because I provide a decent place to live and treat them fairly. All I ask is that they do what they tell me they’re going to do. If you’re going to be late on the rent – or portion in a Section 8 situation – don’t hide from me tell me. And, don’t tell me you’ll have it on Wednesday if you won’t have it till Friday. I’ve never had to evict a tenant, although I had to convince two that it would be better for all concerned if they moved on. But, hey, two in 30 years ain’t bad. On the other hand, I have had two tenants – in different buildings – die on me. That ain’t fun.
I think the point is, the government allows businesses to make all kinds of decisions about who they will or won’t hire. However, there are certain criteria they can’t use to not hire someone – they can’t exclude someone strictly based on religion, sexual orientation, race/creed/color and age. Those are no nos.
The government – not business – can set minimum ages before someone can apply for employment. A truck driver has to be 18, for instance. That’s not business policy. That’s the law. Once those minimums are set, a business can’t arbitrarily say the government says you meet the minimum age, but for me, that’s too low so I am setting a higher minimum age.
A business can set other criteria – it can say it wants someone with at least 3 years experience. But again, that has to apply equally across the board. A producer could not say I won’t hire someone who is 18 without 3 years experience but I will hire a 35 year old without 3 years experience. That would be discriminatory. Whatever is the criteria, it has to be applied equally to all employees – that’s why its called equal employment opportunity. Everyone who meets the qualifications has an equal shot at the job.
Freedom of expression does not allow a production company to discriminate in employment practices. What I mean is that an artist who is creating something called Expressions In Black would have the right, if he or she chose, to only work with Black women because that’s what the project is about.
But, that’s not what Axel is saying. He is saying that he will not as a matter of policy hire someone under the age of 21 for parts where the job requirement is a willingness to get naked and have sex. An 18, 19, or 20 year old is legal and equally qualified for that part under the law.
@rawalex:
It holds up. One can fight and say that the pink car they are driving is a form of expression to bring awareness to breast cancer which is fine, but they have to be 16 to do it and have a license.
People can make their own pornos or films with others without a license. They just can’t sell them. That doesn’t hinder speech. Just the wallet.
See what I am saying?
@BT, I thought of that also, but I think the producer/employer could, on an individual basis, waive their own experience and/or age restrictions (also happens in other industries). There may still be a case, just not a slam dunk. And now that you mention it, I suppose that exact situation could happen quite often in porn, more often than the producer could count as “an exception”.
Yeah..they used to do that with buses, water fountains, and bathrooms…but some kill joy called that discrimination as well. “Certain People” will certainly agree with you and they are easy to find, just look for the clowns wearing pillow covers for hats.
You keep missing the difference between a right and privilege. Painting a car pink is free speech, it’s your right – 1st amendment says so. However, driving is not a right, it’s a government controlled privilege, and as such, they can set reasonable limits on it. Free speech does not mean that you can break the law in general to do it.
Now, before you try to flip it, be careful: A restriction on what legal adult can or cannot appear in a porn movie once they reach the age of majority would be a restriction on free speech. Unlike saying “you cannot drive your car”, which is blocking a privilege, saying “you can’t be in a porn movie because you aren’t 21” would be blocking free speech.
Requiring a license to distribute, sell, or give away free speech material would in itself be a limitation on free speech, which wouldn’t fly. That is why adult book stories, DVD stores, and adult theaters were dealt with via ZONING laws rather than by direct blockage, because it’s long since been given that you cannot restrict adult businesses in a manner that restricts their speech. Even the zoning laws generally are carefully written to assure that there are some locations within the jurisdiction which would be possible to have an adult business in, so that they don’t run afoul of free speech rights.
More specifically, you can drive a car at any age. Just not on public, government maintained roadways. The same argument might be used if you changed that pink car to a reflective surface or covered in bright lights that pose a hazard to other drivers, right?
MIke, it is better. Nice job.
@BrookeTyler –
Are you fucking serious?
A landlord doesn’t want to rent an apartment to someone so they now get to be labeled a KKK member?
If someone invests their own personal funds, which they probably worked very hard for, then THEY should be able to make their own decisions without someone dictating what they can or can’t do.
This isn’t a public bus or governmental housing….
It’s not an “open container” if there is no straw in it…. yeah, I know. Stupid x 10.
😉
Wow bt. …2 in 30 years…..that’s incredible….you must be one hell of a landlord…..you should give seminars on the subject:)….ive worked for health n human services for many years so ive been on both sides of the plexI (as we say in the bis) and its a real skill to not only understand the struggles of the low income but work well to foster and improve their journey…..good for you!….theres nothing like a safe affordable place to hang your hat:)
@rawalex –
I completely understand what you’re saying, but I think you’re taking it a little bit “too literal.”
The minute you make a porno with the intention to sell it for cash, other rules then apply as opposed to if you were just making it for personal use.
Making the video available for purchase by the general public means certain rules and/or laws will now apply…
A graffiti artist can bitch and complain all they want about having their freedom of expression taken away, but the simple fact is if they paint a huge mural in public they can potentially be arrested.
They could argue that their freedom of expression is being taken away, but for the good of the general public and to protect property it’s not allowed.
Freedom of speech as a “right” only goes so far… until it effects of people or property. You can do and say whatever you want UNTIL it comes to involving the welfare of others. Sometimes that means the general public and sometimes that means another person. It’s all relative.
Damn it bt!!….i thought hunters plan was perfect…..but your right….hmmm and yea hunter I think the exception would be too common…..its the old trick ….if everyone requires 3 years experience where do you get your experience?
its a not free speech issue to say they have to be 21. A few things one the director /shooter is the artist not the model and ever look at auditions for main stream movies. They ask for certain height ,weight, sex, age and they are stepping on no ones free speech.
Nobody has been chased off, repeated posts of you are bulklying me or whatever isnt productive, if you have an idea state it if you only want drama go to LIB or someplace I wont have my good intelligent commenters run off by just a couple of people who cant manage to be generally civil. They are welcome to petition Rob to open his blog to comments LOL Id love to see how THAT would work out for em.
The ‘speech’ belongs to the producer. The talent is just acting out the speech of the producer. Their is no violation on the performers speech.
Producers are charged with obscentiy, not performers, because it is not their speech.
@lacey…..I hear what you’re saying…..in my city landlords get so many apps for their properties that they technically get to pick and choose……are you in la?…I would guess it would be the same there as well.
@CP
Your attitude is at the heart of the problem, more specifically when you tell a performer
“I have never met you and I did not know about you until you posted on this site. I apologize, but I wouldn’t hire you.”
You create an atmosphere where they are afraid to voice their opinion or take part in actions to better the industry. You should be hiring talent due to their looks, work ethics (do they show up on time w the appropriate items, and sober), amd their performance on camera. That’s it, period, not whether “this broad thinks she’s a smarty pants and had the audacity to have an opinion that differs w mine”, yeah, you sir are at the scum of the industry that needs to be pruned like a dead branch. And I have no doubt u will. Cause u shoot girls based off the wrong criteria, and I’m sure your members, or lack of, notice and you’re bleeding money like crazy. Ppl like u could probably get away w this when porn was in its hayday but now u need to shoot the girls that perform well, not the ones who never voice an opinion and “stay under the radar” of ppl like u.
@jilted –
EXACTLY!!!!
Hey Mike repeat many time youy allow any one ask many questions want people on your blog site. Now state that is true that those have questions for those make opion on your blog site have no right question those share there opion here. They have no right question those opion state buy your friend they have no right question your opion. So talk about free speech on blog site do not practice when is in your favor. Thanks Mike my case for me.
@Charity
I own a company outside of adult now. I’m talking about your life after porn. Your current career isn’t going to last. What are you going to do after porn? I don’t care how someone looks in my business. It is just that I don’t think a celebrity prostitute would go over too well with the people I work with. Most would feel the same.
@laura –
Yeah. The landlords here get plenty of apps. too… so, they’re always open to discrimination lawsuits. It’s one of my pet peeves, I guess?
I mean if someone comes in to rent an apartment, in say a 4-plex, and the other 3 tenants are elderly long-time tenants and you have a lady who wants to rent the 4th apartment in the same small rental building and she has 6 KIDS I just don’t find it fair that now the other tenants in the building are going to have to hear 6 kids screaming and running around…
You could reasonably say “Well, the elderly tenants should just move….” even though they’ve lived there for the last 20 years.
How in the hell is that fair? Not only to the elderly tenants who don’t want to hear 6 kids screaming up and down the stairs, but to the landlord who has had absolutely NO problems from the tenants in the last 20 years!!!
I’ve actually seen this happen which is probably why it irritates me so much. Being a landlord is 100% NOT easy. It’s a constant job whether it’s dealing with tenants, repairs or collecting rent. Once you find a good tenant it just makes it that much more easier.
To those beating free speech drum where say not provide safe work environment coverd under first amendment??? The talk about thing called second amendment. Which is just is important frist amebdment what states. Second amendment state all have right owen gun if your of illegal age have no criminal felonys. How ever there place like Chicago Illinois New Yor City Washington DC California regulate your second amendment right any way they want to. So even as supreme court say you have right for your second amendment they said states citys have right regulate your second amendemt any way they wish to. So want gun in California than state say gone go get license for it your gone have be right age for it there gone have be finger print for it your gone have pass test see if you know what your doing with your gun if do not pass test you do not get gun or money back for try buy gun. If you do want do any thing state say you have owen not gone owen gun in state illegally. Nothing in second amendemt say rest counrty has do any of this like California say you do. So think about smart people citys states can regulate your second amendemt any way they see fit to with suprme court blessing what makes think they can not do so with frist amendemt under guise health safty??
I hope this doesn’t get too bad. I really do.
@CharityBangs-
I love that you post here occasionally. I really do. I love hearing from people who are actually performing in the industry and not just IN the industry. It takes balls to speak out and not many performers choose to do so, but I can completely understand why they wouldn’t….
With that said I think you took that post a little too seriously. I don’t think CPanzram was trying to offend you or anything. She seemed to be offering some good HONEST advice. I realize it’s probably not what you wanted to here, but it was honest.
You have to realize that people other than Shelly fucking Lubben do worry about you. Not because they disagree with what you’re doing, but because they know what happens when the lights, cameras, fans, attention, awards are all gone.
You also have to realize that showing up to set on time and being sober is not some kind of dramatic work ethic. Those are givens in the real world. No professional in the real world is running around telling everyone “Well, I show up on time and I’m sober!”
I realize in the porn industry this is considered an advantage and I get it, but in the real world there is alot more expected of you such as experience.
I may be wrong, but I think CPanzram was just saying to have a back-up plan for when you no longer want to be a porn star or even when the industry is finished with you whether due to an STD, injury or even age.
@BT
I’ll have to get with a lawyer for sure but…it seems this producer has stated his chosen demographic is 21+ He could choose MILF which also means 18 need not apply. It’s true that his given rationales will not apply to every under 21 however he is free to choose what medium best suits his needs for creative expression…he clearly states ..limiting the quantity of choice in favor of a quality expression.
As I understand it Braun films Parodies making this much less of an issue than say if he were doing teen dreams as a constant theme.
Look at modeling…some do only infants..some do only toddlers…on up to geriatrics..ask Bette White. I’m not seeing the age discrimination.
@raw
Just don’t paint that car…Mary Kay pink or Dunkin Donuts pink..they Trademarked those and no matter how much you love yer expensive fancy pink car…you aren’t FREE to express their colors lol
Yep, I am serious and obviously so are you which makes it so perplexing. Sometimes things just slip out I reckon. Let’s put the shoe on the other foot hypothetically. I hate women accountants. I have a house for rent and you want to rent it. You’re the most qualified, good credit, no criminal history, good rental history (all legal criteria to actually be a bigot about) but fuck it…I’m a dumb landlord and I hate women accountants. So Joe the plumber, and I do like plumbers, gets it even though he has less than stellar credit. But pick and choose people because you don’t like them is your thing, so you say fuck it, lets move on to another house. Wait…it turns out a whole bunch of people in this neighborhood hate women accountants so now what? It’s OK, there is always that shit box down the street where kids disappear but…at least it will be quiet there. Remember, before you blow your top.. this is hypothetical…I don’t hate women accountants nor does anyone I know. I do know a lot of people who hate Blacks, Muslims, Latinos, people with kids, and just about everyone else who doesn’t fit their little click or preconceived notion and guess what…your theory applies detrimental to all of them on a daily basis. You can argue all jump up and down all you want, but that’s why they passed the damn laws and rightly so. What I really don’t get is you as an accountant of all people should know that you should be relying on rental history, criminal background check, credit history. Don’t sell me section 8 housing either…that’s telling in its own right.
Question and question people leave there opions here. Question why matter to them. Qustion why effects them all . Question why they well not answers you question on subject they care about. Question why say porn indusrty that care about these issue say nothing about care about them here. Question those people say care about porn indusrty see no reason make safer. Question some say he does allow cuting pasting here cut pasting story from other people him self. Question guy say he care about porn indusrty yet state that becuase some with dease said he sorry he should forgive for what he did. Question why so called sage on site turn ever thing that happen in porn indusrty be Rob Black fault when he state give him to much credit. Question for head blog site Rob give me answers ever question I have on radio show explain where he come from what he stand for when are you gone do same Mike??? Mike you been listen show you have know this. Question question opions here becuase not geting any answers to your question than you well no where these opion are come from why porn indusrty take any body seriously. After all you just in be Mike beer body who vist him in hospital with six pack have opion matter more than all yours on this site. Wow Mike really cheap be one your friends.
I would pay good money to see Rob Black’s blog opened to comments. I do read his blog from time to time (and listen to parts of his night show, very entertaining at 1am) and have wished I could comment there. It would be even more interesting if Rob responded to comments like you do. I do suspect that Rob would be less civil about it, however.
Here for the most part things are civil and we are always able to discuss issues without too many trolls. However, a certain former male porn performer that likes Michael Weinstein and Isadore Hall really has tromped on my nerves lately and I admit that I really went off on the former male porn performer hard on here myself in response. The same former male porn performer caused problems at LIB until Kelly cleaned house there as well.
@BrookeTyler –
I can say nothing slipped out of my mouth. I have a pretty firm grasp on my views and opinions and if you want to label me a KKK member then so be it. (even though you don’t know my race, but whatever…)
I’ve been called worse.
Where do they even sell KKK hoods? Do you just order them online somewhere?
*facepalm*
@Lacey &Brooke
Lol…our rental apps have no place for race, religion, creed, etc…we do however ask…number of bedrooms desired, number of inhabitants etc to ensure we don’t violate zoning laws by allowing an too high an occupancy..yes someone tried to sue us..a Somalian said my white self was discriminating when I wouldn’t rent to him and eight others trying to lease a 628sf one BR apt, the only vacancy. We counter sued his lawyer who makes a living suing white landlords and won our legal fees back.
The laws are a good thing, assuming they apply isn’t.
I didn’t label you one, you did that fine all by yourself. I simply stated a fact, that your rental theory is the same doctrine the dudes with the white pillow case hats follow…to the letter. But…it is what is and this back and forth should end here as it unnecessary and pointless on both sides. How about those crazy Iranians?
Missed the point…Must be out to lunch 🙂
Sometimes…it happens. I look up and the jet has already gone by.
@BrookeTyler –
Iranians suck too… Whatever.
I don’t know what federal law was in 1980 offhand but now even an emancipated 17 year old cannot work in a sexually oriented business (federal law) and by that same federal law strip clubs are legally sexually oriented businesses.
Also I feel badly that you were in a situation where emancipation was necessary for you LR. I hope your life’s trials made you a stronger person at least. Some people come out of such circumstances stronger while others unfortunately come out broken (I think Traci Lords and Lindsay Lohan are examples of being broken at least in the short term).
I think most KKK members make them themselves. I guess that could be a question for the KKK headquarters in Traverse City. I know I don’t have the balls to ask. 🙂
For the record just because someone wants a good renter that doesn’t create problems or doesn’t want to lease a one bedroom apartment to a chick with six rugrats doesn’t make that landlord a KKK member.
@mharris
Parents divorce took 11 years changed NJ probate…omg Poppy is laughing over my shoulder…I forgot he did the paperwork..anyway..it was dads way of telling mom FU now he had a end around vs trying for custody, he was dying..knew he provided for us…just didn’t know his new wife would fight to get it all ..lmao…I get my love of policy and law honestly..that’s for sure.
What happened to us as kids was long done…until I heard about his gruesome death I was most impressed by Thomas Friday in the class room fortunately.
@mharris
Parents divorce took 11 years changed NJ probate…omg Poppy is laughing over my shoulder…I forgot he did the paperwork..anyway..it was dads way of telling mom FU now he had a end around vs trying for custody, he was dying..knew he provided for us…just didn’t know his new wife would fight to get it all ..lmao…I get my love of policy and law honestly..that’s for sure.
What happened to us as kids was long done…until I heard about his gruesome death I was most impressed by Thomas Friday in the class room fortunately.
Ah, I stand corrected. I thought u were implying u were a producer, not that u were referring to a non-adult business. No need to worry about me sweety, I’m in porn until I retire. I didn’t start for a quick paycheck nor did I without a proper plan. I sat my family and friends down before i started and told them so there wouldnt b any surprises and calls to quit. I’m not going to get tired of it and finally I do have a plan B. This isn’t something I’m taking day by day, I have a 5, 10 and 15 yr plan. I own my own domain name, I build content each week, I take dancing lessons for future feature dancing, etc, etc. I see where y’all are coming from and I understand I’m the exception not the rule but I got this.
@charity…..oh good im glad you have a better understanding of where cspan was coming from…..I agree with lacey that it was coming from a good place and we would hate to see you get scared off from posting here…..your thoughts are very valuable to the dIscussions here and we all wish you the best….its good to know you have some coinciding plans too…..I think most here would also feel even better knowing you had more opportunities to shoot with condoms without the stigma of possibility loosing work….. What are some of your biggest industry concerns?
Laura: One, I’ve probably been lucky. Two, my rentals aren’t my livelihood, they’re a complement to my livelihood, so I’ve always been willing to work with people when they have financial problems – and when you’re dealing with blue collar folks, they always have a problem at some point in the year. Three, I’ve never had more than four units at one time – the law of averages says a guy renting out 20 units or 30 units is more likely to run into a jerk than me.
My two favorites were a truck driver who was a month or two behind in rent and abandoned the house – showed up one day and it was empty of his stuff, but he left his dog behind. So, I took the dog home rather than send it to the pound. About 3 months later, it ran into the street and got hit by a car. Shortly after that, the guy showed up and wanted his dog. Got pissed that it had gotten out of my house and run over. He kept saying: You killed my dog.
About ten years ago, a forty-something who was in the middle of divorce from an executive at a financial services company rented an apartment from me. Started out with her keeping the place like Martha Stewart. About 8 months later, she took up with an 18 year old drug dealer (her I had to evict after I came home one day and the cops had the guy spread eagle on the driveway, then she bailed him out and let him back in). The kicker was she drove this big Ford Explorer. Before tossing them out, the guy was driving his own Ford Explorer. I learned she’d leased it for him. Why? Cuz he lost his license and Ford wouldn’t lease it to him.
She sort of got what she had coming.
PS – aside from my own rentals, I’m in a pissing contest with college students who live across the street from me. I live in a college town. Most of the homes on my street are single families, including mine. But there’s a four unit student housing across from me. Now, I take a lot of pride in my lawn. It is the showcase of the neighborhood. The place across from me has a huge parking lot in the back of the house, with room for tenants and guests. The city created a black top parking area directly in front of the house with room for four cars. So, what happens? New kid moves in and she’s too busy to park in the parking lot and walk to the front of the building or drive down one driveway and turn around so she can park on the black top in front of her building. Instead, she pulls onto the grass between the sidewalk and the street in front of my house. She’s killing the grass and forming a rut. So, yesterday, I ask her nicely if she’d mind not parking on my lawn, but park in her parking lot or on the blacktop right in front of her building.
Her response: I’m too busy to argue with you, but this is city property and I can park anywhere I want.
Unfortunately, its illegal to run college kids down with my car.
@bt…..ahahaha yea dont run her down…..I live a block from the beach so parking issues are always a point of contention around here…you handled things right, hopefully she reconsiders your request….im sure you were really nice about it.