Ok I have a lot of people telling me about this one.
Seems ATK got visited by OSHA yesterday and OSHA was ready…They had a subpoena for months of 2257 records. They weren’t inspecting those records for 2257 purposes but to ascertain when a shoot occurred and if it violated the statewide OSHA condom rules, AND to prove they didn’t pull the required permits.
And ATK isn’t the only ones, I have been hearing for a couple of weeks that Evil Angel got a visit as well. In Evils Case They are just a middleman so no idea how that one turned out but my gut tells me they want shoot dates, and producers names and addresses from Evil’s 2257 records.
Porners need to pay CLOSE attention to this, You can pretty well bet it’s why Vivid isn’t shooting anything new. Say what you want about Steve Hirsch but the guy is smart when it comes to that.
I’m hearing Digital Playground is high on OSHAs list to.
108 Responses
Cal-OSHA Using 2257 To Violate Producers on Condom Law and Permits http://t.co/7LQh5grZt3
Still curious about the mysterious disappearance of previously posted reports on OSHA site. First Sx Video DBA So Cal Media disappeared, then three Cybernet Entertainment LLC DBA Kink.com went away.
This isn’t a lag in posting or releasing to main search from the internal server. Very odd to have something ordinary get posted and disappear from a Gov site.
Hmmmm.. how interesting.
I wonder if this is one of the main reasons why the Backdoor Teen Mom 2 video was recently released? Old footage with the potential for a huge profit, especially with no talent or recent overhead costs…
If so, then Hirsch is definitely smart, indeed. Wait for the correct timing to make the largest profit and then release it to keep the cash flowing….
I guess the most relevant question is how far back is OSHA looking?
No telling but if I had an open inspection I’d be absolutely concerned.
According to my absent crystal ball…Any minute now industry sites will be posting a comment from Duke/FSC….judge threw out AHF lawsuit against LACPH for retaliation.
@Lurk –
Maybe they decided those reports weren’t “ordinary” anymore… lol.
@Lurk –
Are you fucking serious or is that a joke??
Using 2257 to get names of EMPLOYEES and dates of production, Now who do y’all think predicted EXACTLY his about 2 years ago, and was then banned from Adultdvdtalk,com soon afterwards?
The wheels turn slowly, but I do love it when a plan comes together. See what happens when you rip people off for hundreds of thousands of dollars and then challenge them to “Do someithing about it.” More to come. OIP
Think they would go back to the Measure B pass date in LA county? I doubt it, but who knows anymore…
Ps. Agents, wait to see whats in store for you guys. Got all the time in the world, and the money just keeps rolling in to that big Non-Profit organization that is kicking your ass left and right.
Agents are required to keep detailed records of who they book performers with, and they are under the same state agency as, yep, you guessed it CAL-OSHA.(Dept. of Industrial Releations) And just like 2257, the DIR can walk into an agency unannounced and get their records. OIP
@jilted – Any chance OSHA is stepping up enforcement before appeal of TIM/Karen Tyman? Can OSHA fines even be dropped after the fact?
you mean the NEXT appeal of TIM…..I think there is a pretty good chance that some industry bigwigs are telling Tynan to forget about any more appeals to higher courts. They know they have a loosing hand, you dont pick a battle you cant win. Ask the Kazzoo.
And of course, if you win on appeal the fines are dropped, but that aint gonna happen. I hope Tynan is persuing the appeal, so is AHF. Remember the old days when heavyweight boxers went 15 rounds, I would say we’re in about round 8 right now, and the industry has lost about 6 rounds, tied two, but is getting completely punch drunk and has nothing left in the tank. This shit costs money ya know, and that is the one thing that most of the industry doesnt have these days. Just like in war, you bleed your enemies resources, then just march in and wipe them out. Dont engage in loosing battles, unless it is soley for the purpose of draining the eneies rescourses.
I keep hearing one year
GOOD Point This could be big and judging from the IP addys of who is hitting server since this went up porn valley IS reading this
I bet most of porn reads this blog every weekday anyway but more readership is always a good thing (unless the readership is reading the Kazoo’s site Adult FYI — that idiot is not good for porn).
Speaking of the Kazoo, his staunch pro-condom stance must be a recent conversion, I don’t recall his movies having condoms in them routinely.
And look at the Clips for Sale links on AFY,,,dont see to many condoms in the stuff he is currently selling either. I think they call that being a hypocrite. Kind of like AHF stores selling bareback gay videos.
Didnt the Kazzoo talk about a new Snow White movie with katie Summers,,,,,wonder if they used ondoms,,,or will his excuse be they didnt have condoms in fairytale land. Hey KAZZOO, did ya use condoms,,,kudos to you if you did.
@Mike –
1 year? Do you realize how crazy that would be?
If that is the case, then Cal-OSHA could actually fine Vivid for Backdoor Teen mom 1 AND 2. They have every single bit of proof just sitting right in front of them… it couldn’t get any easier than that…
This just keeps getting more insane as the days go by…
At this point, I’m not even sure what’s worse anymore: IRS audits or OSHA inspections/fines?
IRS audits for the win due to the federal prison possibility, but OSHA fines are a very close second due to the bankruptcy possibility…
Lacey: My guess is that Vivid’s release of Backdoor Mom 2 has nothing to do with CalOsha. They did the same thing years ago with Kim Kardashian – and there was no threat regarding condom laws or OSHA. They had the footage. They’d already paid for it once. Now, they can recut it, create a new product, and bring in additional revenue. Even if the additional revenue isn’t great, the investment is minimal. I don’t work for Vivid, but that’s certainly the way every media company I’ve ever worked for approached things – we’ve already paid for the product and we own it. Now, how many different ways can we repackage and resell it.
Jilted: You are the man. And, if you go back through posts we have both made, I have been saying – and being ridiculed for saying it – from the first time the condom law was proposed that enforcing it (or OSHA regs) isn’t rocket science, or even expensive. The violations are right there on film for anyone to see; plus, most production companies (see any Naughty America Vid) post the 2257 info right at the front of the scene. Brazzers lets you jump right to the action. To quote Mike Barnicle on the OJ Simpson trial: There’s a blood trail that Stevie Wonder could follow.
It’s really just a matter of whether the authorities care enough to do something about it. Which gets to the other thing I’ve said about porn – as a warning to porn talent – the fact that law enforcement authorities, health departments and OSHA don’t go after porn tells you how they view what you do, which is to say: until now, they could give a rat’s ass whether you lived or died, whether you were healthy or disease ridden. If they cared about your well being, they’d enforce the law and regulations.
PS – Backdoor Mom is old footage. There’s no point in going after Vivid over old footage when new, fresh violations are taking place every day.
Unless porn is really gutsy and willing to go for broke, there will be no more appeals of CalOsha. If I was porn, I would put all of my eggs in the Vivid appeal and take it all the way to the Supreme Court. That’s their riskiest approach but also the one in which they have the best chance to prevail because they can make it a First Amendment issue.
I say its risky because I believe the Supremes will rule against them. But, if they win, the ruling would apply to all fifty states. Of course, if they lose, they lose in all fifty states.
@BT,
Thanks, and props to you too.
Here’s the problem with the go for broke strategy,,,its the people you have leading the charge, Dianne Duke, Karen Tynan(who still tells companies that performers are NOT employees). Hey Karen, wishful thinking does not make something a reality.
As far as OSHA regs go, I cannot forsee any court ruling that OSHA regulation 5193 is unconstitutional, especially now that we have an example of how condoms can be removed from the final product. And just saying.”I cant afford to follow the rules” does not get you off the hook.
Its been a long time coming(no pun intended) but there is no turning back now.
One thing the porn industry just doesnt understand is,,Michael Weinstien could care less about loosing any particular battle. AVN and XBIZ are all in a tizzy becuase the suit against the health department got thrown out. WHippy wing wong, Weistien could care less, THe county pissed him off so he caused them a big headache, he accomplished exactly what he wanted, He knew he would never win that battle, but he has the resources that porn doesnt.
And even if Measure B is thrown out, who the fuck cares,,,OSHA still rules the day. Except FSC and Hershey will spend a bunch of money, and claim vicotry,,,then Weinstien will launch another battle to further deplete the dwindling resources of the industry. And even the state legislature is hip to the fact that the industry is not bringing anywhere near the money they claim into the state coffers, and when it comes to buying politicians the industry doesnt stand a chance against weintseins warchest of MILLIONS AND MILLIONS AND MILLIONS. Heck, the porn industry could NOT even raise one measly milllion to fight measure B,,,what do you think will happen when a statewide initiative gets on the ballot? And even if that passes, and then gets thrown out WHO THE FUCK CARES,,,,,OSHA still rules the day.
SO while the porn press preaches to the choir and revels in Weinstien losing his bid against the county health department, AHF marches on. THEY DONT CARE IF THEY LOSE ANY INDIVIDUAL BATTLE!!!! Each of these battle just bleeds the industry a little dryer, and soon, all the blood and money will be gone. ONLY IN FUCKING PORN
@BT.
I think the old saying is quite applicable, “He who laughs LAST, laughs best.
I have always avoided Japanese porn due to the mosaic’s they use to blur the genitals of performers. Recently however, I’ve discovered a couple of Japanese niches I found interesting. One is the catfight movies (basically two hotties covered in oil wrestle until one pins or forces the other to submit, then a bunch of men come in to punish/humiliate the loser). The other is the gameshow parodies.
The thing is… I don’t even notice the mosaic’s in these movies. Bottom line – if the porn is interesting enough condom’s won’t have a massive impact on the bottom line, but companies need to ensure the quality of the scenes is sufficient.
I sincerely hope the enforcement of condoms leads to better quality and more imaginative productions, sadly though I suspect it will merely result in an endless spiral of court actions, bankruptcy’s and poor quality start-ups with the same names continually popping up.
@BT –
Oh no, I realize it’s back footage. My point was there were MANY movies released without condoms in the last year… Do the just fine all of them or pick a few?
@BT –
I know we’ve discussed this in the past, but I STILL don’t understand how the industry could win on a first amendment argument? I guess I could possibly see it passed if condoms were a requirement.
But, even if you just look at the harm principle in regards to the first amendment, it basically says that individuals have full rights to speech and expression UNLESS it harms another individual in the process.
If the appeal goes to the Supreme Court, then how could they possibly rule favorably for the industry based on the first amendment when performers are capable of infecting other performers in the process?
Wouldn’t the harm principal apply?
RT @MikeSouth1226: Cal-OSHA Using 2257 To Violate Producers on Condom Law and Permits http://t.co/7LQh5grZt3
Lacey I think its more about When it was shot I think right now they are targeting stuff since measure B was passed and while they may subpoena stuff from a year or more ago my bet is they are more interested in the last 3-6 months
Im also hearing that they are giving companies the option to “work with them” or its gonna get ugly
which backs up what lurk said….mark my words this is gonna get hot for porn valley
Mike has stated many times he gives his girls the option of condoms (and I understand that his talent is tested for all of the nasty VDs, twice for HIV). The only one to directly accuse him of doing otherwise is Monica Foster and she never even worked for Mike. Also, Mike doesn’t film in CA so he is not subject to their ruinous Cal-OSHA laws. This is all Cal-OSHA’s and AHF’s crusade really boils down to, a crusade to eliminate porn production completely from CA by assholes like Izzy Hall and Michael Weinfuck (I understand the latter’s stance, he did get stuck with at least two of the porn HIV cases medical costs at $150K annually minimum — Izzy being on the bandwagon I don’t quite understand).
@Mike
One year look back? Have you heard anything that says they are only going to revisit inspections that opened in the past year vs possible one year look back on any open (not yet resolved) inspection?
If you happen to be talking about the Kazoo I think he is a hypocrite. Of course we don’t really know if his videos are old content from before prison or if he is actually still making scenes so I could be wrong.
Lacey i dont think BT thinks they would win with that arg either I thiink he just means its their best chance…slim as it is.
I have always been 100% condom neutral…always. and it hasnt hurt me. i dont shoot much boy/girl these days mostly bukkakes and such but I am launching a new site with a girl I think will do very well so i am stepping it up a bit in that area.
I get Izzy being on the bandwagon thats easy simple politics…his district voted OVER 70% in favor of measure B to a politician thats a mandate…a cant lose position. Remember at the end of the day his job is to represent his constiuents and I have to say he has been VERY nice to me when I have talked with him and his staff about this issue. I think had we as an industry embraced hthem and AHF and said ya know you have a point lets work out something that we can all live with and make this biz safer for talent…I think the outcome would have been MUCH more to our liking
Im actually in agreement I find the mosaics far less distracting than the shitty camerawork and the constant attention on the former wards of the penal system we call actors in the US.
@Mike/BT-
There’s so much shit & lawsuits going on I don’t even remember what what Vivid is appealing at this point? We’re discussing the Vivid appeal of Measure B, correct?
So, Vivid would take the case that “the porn industry should be allowed the produce porn without condoms or any protection” based solely on the first amendment all the way to the Supreme Court?
Do I have that right?
If so, I give it a 5% chance for a ruling in favor of Vivid. And, that’s being generous….
@Mike
This is big…porn has been in denial and on the defensive for so long that there are folks convinced these fights are just another day in the life of porn. New performers look to experienced performers, producers and agents for answers and direction. With Karen Tynan as the registered agent for APAC and judging by Porn 101 along with xbiz WIP feature write ups…the FSC/Stakeholders aren’t going to be changing their tune anytime soon.
AHF has been accepted as a big bad wolf making bogus allegations. Lmao seeing …bogus allegations in an article posted after the TIM ruling.
OSHA is the big bad wolf’s bitch in heat with idea that this too shall pass.
Guess what folks…anyone in construction 15 years ago (or any other High Hazard Industry) knows what it’s like to have OSHA on a rampage. 2257 use is new, two weeks ago it was fear that OSHA would view footage without site visits, now it’s a triple threat. Site visit for follow up on open inspections, repeat document requests with 2257 added, then they can view footage.
There are a lot of folks who listened when they heard don’t worry, didn’t make an IIPP or start keeping records…regulatory just turned serious. 25k proposed fine for Cybernet/Kink vs less than a grand.
Even if the industry decided to treat bareback as the Maserati of porn by developing and presenting a plan that would reduce exposure to its lowest permissible levels, citations and fines related to not having an IIPP aren’t going away. IG Factory Video…universal precautions & engineering and work practices went away but (ECP) Exposure Control Plan remained. This plan is separate but usually included in IIPP where blood and OPIM are expected.
OSHA is going to try and clear up (cooperatively or adversarial) inspections opened under the old policy before the new one gets presented for public input.
Media isn’t the industries friend on this one…worldwide attention to Kink, the Condom Bill and AHF proficiency to spread press releases the only thing missing is the looming 2257 appeal in Cleveland.
Sorry to be so long…the drawn out fight with OSHA and the possibility of new OPIM policy literally sucked me into the world of porn six months ago wondering how fast it would play out. At this point everyone is staying at the table with the upped ante and new cards.
@jilted
Duke praised reaching the 200k mark to fight Condom legislation along with sharing the burden and the plea for support. Does she realize that AHF pursuing this as part of their mission is getting them publicity and donations without begging? It’s pretty sad when you have an industry living off shared/affiliated income proud to raise 200k in a year. Wonder how much industry articles and posts about this issue have generated in traffic revenue this year?
I just love the industry saying that OSHA is trying to run porn out of california. OSHA virtually ignored the industry for two DECADES. It wast util Weinstein turned up the heat and filed complaints that OSHA was legally bound to investigate. OSHA, and County health were content for DECADES to ignore porn.
Porn has never had a foe like weinstien. The religious advocates, the Moral Majority, Pat Trueman, for the most part a bunch of douche bags who are more interested in fighting the moral battle. And after all the moral crusading porn is more available every day to more people, expecially children, via the internet. These crusaders have done virtually NOTHING to put a dent in the porn industry.
Weinstien has done alot of damage to the industry, and he will continue to do so. The porn industry today is nothing more than a fish flopping around the deck of a boat, taking its last gasps for air before the fisherman whacks it over the head and kills it.
I am thinking of changing my hanle here to “The Architect” To Tom R., I know you read this site every day,,,remember when you told me,”What are you going to do about it?” I do. As they say in poker, “Read ’em and weep.”
@Mike
Exactly …After ten years of cat and mouse it wasn’t a good idea for Duke/FSC to call OSHAs bluff last summer. The epidemiologist was presented to play last minute dueling studies vs offer actual industry data that everyone could have used to create a non-discriminatory BB option. OSHA and the medical world are only too aware of MSM vs GG/MG rates w/ respect to every STI, unfortunately they can’t make the gay/straight distinction porn has relied on when creating, adopting and implementing policy. You can also bet that by now these players are willing to pass advance or complimentary legislation for pre-employment HIV testing where there is potential harm to the employee.
Michael Weinstien spends that much on one single patient a year. And when the usual industry aplogists condem Weinstien for spending money on this,,,,are they really that stupid and dont realize how much he is bringing IN from all of this?
Remember the Measure B bus rally, and they had this meeting that was industry people only…LOL Talk about preaching to the choir. The great Twitter/Facebook campaign, the saddest part is some of the dupes, oops, performers actually thought they were part of a real political campaign.
I have seen fifth graders run better campaigns for class president.
And the industry constantly saying(LYING) that they would be forced to hire HIV+ performers, when the ADA clearly carves out an exception when the threat is obvious. Again, the Brian Chase article on the industry legal exposure is great, and debunks virtually every single argument the industry puts forward.
The industry has YEARS of testing data, done by themselves, not some anti porn third party that they could use to show condoms arent necessary, EXCEPT, that data shows exactly the opposite. If that data could help the industry you know they would use it.
@jilted
Don’t get me going on FSC/Stakeholder morality…one look at the ASACP site shows duplicity at every turn. Filters aren’t enough…I agree!
Testing alone or condoms alone aren’t enough either! Who do they think is gonna donate to ASCAP? The parents who will be talking/communicating with their kids or the producers/talent they’ve convinced that 2257 is violating their rights as onerous and industry persecution? WTF…as the lawyers you’re paying to push that agenda about onerous industry persecution. Just make sure to do it at a casual function/event vs call or email that requires tracking/billing record keeping to deplete the retainer held in the regulated escrow account.
@jilted
ROFLMAO…earlier today hubby was telling me about people I have to meet f2f from an event last night. They heard about and were impressed with my charity fundraising. 200k for an industry wide issue is jack shit…I’ve raised that much from strangers in less time for various charity events.
It helps if you don’t pull a Lacroix by letting audience know the IRS caught up to you for not reporting income made possible by the First Amendment. Wasn’t sure if he was advocating living high or responsibility (fiscal/sexual) either way it doesn’t come off too well to have a guy with it all begging an audience struggling to pay the rent.
As far as condoms making testing go away….I think that’s gonna bite them in the ass.
Even the trained FSC attack dog couldn’t refute the fact that the industry even tried to challenge/change HIV pre-employment testing discrimination laws. IIRC an oil rig worker discrimination claim was denied because the nature and required activities of his duties created hazards to HIV+ The court said that the employer required to prevent /protect employee has a right to know if there is ANY condition that would prevent employee from performing the duties and/or be harmed in the performance of those duties.
All the focus on defeating 2257 has left this issue along with developing a plan that combines testing/limits become a crisis.
The FSC turning to performers to fight the producers battle is laughable, and disgusting. FSC has NEVER represented the interest of performers, and now you have these ignorant dupes, the likes of James Deen, kayden Kross, and all the others who are all to willing to sell their fellow performers down the river just to remain in good standing with the last renmants of a once thriving industry.
If you remember, the original plan was to charge performers an annual fee for the privelage of being listed on PASS/APHSS, after paying for the tests yourself.
Several years ago the FSC tried to get Mitch to ‘donate’ a fee, something like 5 or 10 dollars per patient to the FSC. Every penny AIM ever got came directly from performers,,,over the years AIM recieved LESS than 0.75% of their money from other donations, and that includes the monthly fee for passwords to results.
A local church where I live raised 35k last weekend at a big yard/parking lot/rummage sale. They advertised and took donations for about two months, all of this done by a volunteer team of three people.
The myth of how much money the industry generates is over, and the California Legislature knows it.
First the industry says we are all responsible adults, making legal choices. So why on earth would any responsible adult who is having unportected sex with multiple partners not get tested regualrly. Of course no responsible adult has unprotected sex with multiple prostitutes, but this is porn.
Performers PAY for everything. Do you think Kayden Kross, Jenna Haze, Evan Stone, Stoya, Jessica Drake, even Porno Dan are going to stop getting tested.
Nice chatting with ya Lurk.
OIP
I don’t think there is a myth about the gross revenues created by the industry, I think the anti-tax & required regulatory reporting stance forces revenues to be attributed to the truly highly regulated ancillary industries that make porn possible.
Finance, legal and manufacturing are all highly regulated with respect to their purpose and income reporting. Anything manufacturing material imported is subject to tighter regulations. All the goods and services purchased are also subject to regulatory processes that support porn…IG building codes to support the required amperage to run lights/av equipment, equipment standards for av equipment & machinery for video/novelty manufacture.
RT @MikeSouth1226: Cal-OSHA Using 2257 To Violate Producers on Condom Law and Permits http://t.co/7LQh5grZt3
Never said numbers routinely tossed about weren’t fishing tales, still see a large economic impact.
Lacey/Mike: Mike is correct regarding my view on this. When the condom bill was first floated, which seems like about two years ago at this point, there was a furious debate on LukeIsBack, with porners saying this would never happen because the First Amendment protects them. I waded in then, and contend to this day, that the First Amendment does not give trump the health and safety of the public. I argued then, and continue to argue, that it is a workplace safety issue.
In the flame wars that was Luke Is Back at that time, I was told that I simply didn’t understand the First Amendment and was probably too stupid to figure it out, so why bother.
I don’t think appealing OSHA makes sense because with OSHA, they’re clearly playing on the workplace safety playing field. Porn can argue all day that its testing system works, but the fact is that in the last year, it has not. Nothing is 100%, but condoms would likely have prevented the outbreaks that occurred in the last year or two – not just HIV, but other STD’s. Porn focuses on HIV, but OSHA will focus on all sexually transmitted diseases or blood born diseases. What’s more, it wouldn’t surprise me if OSHA at some point focuses on some acts – especially acts that are physically punishing like what happens at Kink.
So, what was the Vivid suit. Vivid made a First Amendment argument. More importantly, Vivid made a business argument – that California was going to ruin the business model and put porn out of business. Kayden Kross argued that could not afford the extra costs associated with shooting with condoms; the male talent on that suit argued that his livelihood was at risk because fewer scenes would be shot and he wouldn’t be able to make a living; and Vivid argued that the public would not purchase scenes with condoms if non-condom scenes shot in other locales were available.
The Judge rejected Vivid’s First Amendment argument out of hand – to use an old phrase, he did not dignify it with a response. He did take the business argument more seriously and rolled back some fees. But at the end of the day, he said: No, you gotta wear condoms and protect employees.
Now, as Mike points out, I think the judge was right on the First Amendment. I do not believe that Vivid will win on that point – or on the business argument either.
However, here’s the thing people don’t understand about appeals. Appeals courts give great deference to the trial judge. They assume he read all the filings, he reviewed all of the evidence, he heard all the witnesses and he listened to all of the arguments first hand before making his judgment.
So, to win on appeal, the appellants – Vivid, Kross and the dude – have to show that the judge was plainly wrong under the law. In other words, he was asleep at the wheel that day and just blew it.
The reason the First Amendment argument is possibly Vivid’s best shot is that the judge dismissed the First Amendment argument out of hand. He said: Even if this goes all the way to the Supremes, Vivid isn’t likely to win, so let’s not waste our time.
The process now is this. An appeals decision may send this back to the trial judge. If he rules the same way, it could make its way to the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals. By all accounts, that is the most liberal appeals court in the country. For that reason, it is the court where Vivid has its best shot at winning a First Amendment argument. If so, and if the state doesn’t want to appeal to the Supreme Court, Vivid could have a win in California. If either side loses in the 9th circuit, they could appeal to the supremes. If they decide to hear the case, you could get a ruling that would impact porn not just in California but on a nationwide basis.
And, that’s why I say its a go for broke strategy. Right now, they’re fighting the county of Los Angeles on one front and Cal-Osha on another – in other words, its a local fight. If they lose in California, they can theoretically take their game to another state and fight the battles there. While I doubt it, Nevada or Arizona may welcome porn with open arms for the revenue.
If they go all the way to the supremes and lose, they lose in all fifty states.
I think the supremes would potentially take the case because where porn fits in the First Amendment is so fuzzy – the whole community standards thing. And, I think porn might win the battle on protected speech but lose the battle on condoms. But, it is porn’s best chance.
Probably true. But let’s not forget about Super gonorrhea because that was destroying everything months ago. Any update. You promised big story, many updates and then just let’s forget it. I think concerning this post you’re likely correct though. Seems bad.
“any protection”. Always leave out the testing. Even if you believe it does zero good, it would make your point better if you included the implements they do use. They do require that. A self-imposed regulation. I get that you don’t think it works, but leaving it out of the argument doesn’t help.
“condom neutral”? This is a joke correct. I mean you clearly want a mandate based on what you post and write. Maybe at one point this was true, not sure.
“worldwide attention to Kink”. You’re too in a bubble if you think much of anyone, percentage wise, follows this stuff. I guess “worldwide” as in online, so worldwide. More people know Kink from James Franco being there once than about any recent news.
“The porn industry today is nothing more than a fish flopping around the deck of a boat, taking its last gasps for air before the fisherman whacks it over the head and kills it.”
I assume this means you cheer as the fish is killed and write about how the fish screwed up and doesn’t deserve life.
”What are you going to do about it?”?
Are you part of this other than commenting on it? If no than you didn’t do anything about it.
kayden Kross is ignorant? I have heard her speak on many issues, Seems to have a good head on her shoulders.
5 commenters congratulating each other and in lock step. This isn’t a insulated site at all. Also, why do you make posts about how huge and great your site is compared to AVN and XBIZ? Numbers indicate XBIZ does x10 your traffic and AVN does x50 your traffic. I personally like your site more in many ways. You clearly dig more and it does feel personal. Good things. But you also have posts where you brag and or shit on AVN and XBIZ. Don’t totally get those posts. They are kinda whopping in traffic and Twitter followers. Important Stats for anything online.
Jay Mckenney liked this on Facebook.
@young grasshopper Erik,
“Are you part of this other than commenting on it?” YES you little douche, a major part of it. Now go outside and play, and look both ways before crossing the street.
Oh young grasshopper. The testing program is a voluntary program that performers pay for. It is ILLEGAL for a porn production company to REQUIRE an HIV test. To make REQUIRING an HIV test legal would take an act of legislation.
The VOLUTNARY testing has no legal basis, and will have no impact one way or the other on this court case. Just wait until Steve Hirshtakes the stand and they ask him if his company REQUIRES HIV tests. His answer will be NO, he will say the performers do their own voluntary testing because the law does not allow him to require it.
Erik, you are getting quite tiresome. But youre trying, like the little train that could, and I commend you for that. As the local representative of all the industry’s ridiculous arguments you play a vital role here. If you keep this up you might get an honorable mention at the next FSC awards.
I just dont think the economic impact is anywhere close to what they claim. During Measure B they talked about ONE BILLION dollars in tax revenue and ten thousand jobs. That is a joke. Then they talked about all the related businesses, and mentioned caterers on sets. Really, just because someone brings a 12 pack of tacos from Taco Bell that hardly qualifies as catering.
@erik2690
The last thing I want is a Condom Mandate…realistically the only way to avoid it is OSHA. OSHA can and does allow companies to develop standards that reduce the exposure to lowest permissible level with added monitoring. For porn testing alone or condoms alone aren’t the answer.
All this bullshit propaganda that OSHA would pull a porn move and eliminate testing with mandatory condoms is just bullshit. Post exposure testing applies now…in the new regulations I’d expect inclusion of “on going measurement and monitoring” used for numerous industries.
@erik2690
I’m in a bubble?…you’re a deluded punk allowing yourself to be mislead and trained by people actually making a buck off the crap they push.
German, Russian, Israel and China mainstream news all carried articles on Kink fines. Btw…the articles varied focus from porn to US policies and more.
As to who’s following this…porn isn’t the only industry…roflmao clueless wonder that you are. Employee safety and labor issues are american industries too….Kink is news and has been published in countless labor and safety publications. Maybe you really want to believe no one cares…even small business owners getting off on porn are talking about Kink fines wondering how porn is gonna deal with it.
@erik2690
Congratulations! Your mentors are certain to be proud of you! Too bad you’re a clueless wonder (probably dickless too) who forgot to mention the two sites offering the opinions you regularly regurgitate.
As jilted stated, the testing system is voluntary and has no legal basis.
The major problem with using “Our testing system works” argument is that it’s really nothing more than a 15 day old piece of paper that says you tested negative 15 days ago…
Meaning, it doesn’t really do or prove anything in real time. It’s like looking at a 15 day old pregnancy test after having unprotected sex with 10 different people and assuming you’re no pregnant because you took a pregnancy test 15 days ago…
Sounds absurd, right? That’s the testing system.
It’s a system based on trust, luck and intimidation.
No court on earth would accept the testing system as some sort of “protection” because there is nothing about it that “protects” anyone.
You either get lucky or you get infected. Those are the only 2 outcomes whether you want to admit it or not…
Oi LR! Just cause there’s buggerall of us here, don’t leave little ol’ New Zealand off that list. I read it in the newspaper and popped on here to see what the noise was really about.
@MikeNZ
Duh..NZ New Zealand. Ty for reminder, just cuz I don’t see it doesn’t mean it isn’t there 🙂
“quite tiresome”? DOPNT READ THE COMMENTS. You can’t have it both ways. You can’t read and respond of your own will and then act burdened. Either respond or don’t, but don’t whine about it.
-P*
Okay, but you said no protection. You truly believe it wouldn’t be easier to spread disease without the test? If not then you believe it offers some protection.
How so? I was unaware. How are you involved? Why are you calling names an writing threateningly? U mad? Am I supposed to know who you are? You can’t make an anonymous name like “jilted” and then expect people to know how very, very important you are.
“carried articles”. That doesn’t mean large audience.
“mislead and trained by people actually making a buck off the crap they push.” Yeah… this seems to be a prevalent opinion from inside the insulated echo chamber here. If someones opinion is different they must be aligned with a porn organization or believe everything from FSC. I literally only come to this site for porn articles. Don’t follow any news from FSC or other organizations. Wasn’t “trained”. I disagree with you. If anyone was “trained” it’
s the guy who comes to the site that reinforces his opinions, not the guy who reads the site he often disagrees with.
I literally only read this site for porn news on a regular basis. Can’t even think of 2 more porn info sites outside of the 3 I listed. Mentors? I think I just stated facts. No?
Oh young grasshopper, you still refuse to learn. This is porn, there are only the rules that you make up yourself,,its called self regulation. I too can have it both ways,in or out, up or down, right or left, pro or con, because those are the rules I make for myself.
The vast majority of industy people who read this site know exactly who I am, and they know exactly why i know what I know. My name has been mentioned on this site several times, seems you’ve forgotten that, I told you a few times before. Mike knows who I am,the FSC knows who I am,,,heck, at one time an FSC attorney was my advisor on a ‘project’ I handled for one of their members.
Here’s the thing young grasshopper, I dont give a fuck. I’ve got so many aces up my sleeve that I have yet to play. Remember that little poker lesson I gave you one or two weeks ago, know when to hold em, know when fold em. Make the other guy show his hand, then lay the hammer down. You dont have a clue young grasshopper,but I admire your resilliance.
I make my own rules, and rule number one is I make my own rules whenever I want to. Rule number two is I can break my rules anytime I want to. Rule number three is, I dont give a fuck, you challenge me to do something about it, it do something about it. Rule number four, leave a little room at the tip to catch the goo.
You will never hear me say that the testing system isn’t a very important resource for avoiding the spreading of disease, but I would also never consider it a form of protection because it, literally, offers no protection. None. 0. Nada.
If you want to consider a system that eliminates already infected performers from a group of random people as “protection,” then go for it.
As I’ve said a thousand times so far, the testing system offers the same amount of protection as a standard pregnancy test.. that means none.
The talent pool would become an extremely high risk group of people for the spreading of disease without the testing system. But, is there really that big of a difference between “extremely high risk” and “high risk” when it comes to the spreading of disease and the potential for an epidemic?
Honestly, the only thing I absolutely hate about the testing system is the rampant use of it as a false sense of security… That’s my biggest problem with the system: The fact that so many performers don’t seem to understand it or what it does… especially new performers.
Young ghopper,
Testin tells you if you caught something in the past. It does not protect you in the future.
Explain young Ghopper, how does taking a test for stds on Monday protect you or your parnter on Friday? It is left out of the argument because it is not part of the argument. Trying to limit the spread of disease is not protection, just ask the THOUSANDS of performers who have caught stds over the years,,,,THOUSANDS!!!!!!
The testing is done and paid for by the performers, so tell me GHopper, what do the producers do to provide a safe workplace, and remember now, the performers pay for the testing,,,so what do producers do? I will give you a clue, since you are so clueless, they do NOTHING, not one single thing.
And as usual your assumption would be wrong,but thats nothing new. And just to set you straight(no pun intended) I do not favor mandatory condoms, I never have and never will. What I advocate for is employers, that is producers, to PAY for the consequences of not using condoms in their workplaces. And if producers are going to
‘require’ std tests then they, like EVERY SINGLE other industry that requires pre employment health screenig, should pay for it.
Is that to hard for you to comprehend amigo. Regarding the death of the industry, YES I will applaud the death of the industry as it is now, and will celebrate the birth of a new industry that replaces it. It is the people who want to clean up this mess that will be around long after those that made the mess disappear.
That being said young GHopper, feel free to make all the assumptions you want, just know that you are probably wrong the vast majority of the time.
And have you ever heard of quality versus quantity. its not how many people read this site, its who reads this site, and this site has a bigger impact on the industry that AVN or XBiz combined.
Wait, so your name has been mentioned on some random post, but you won’t say it now? And yet I’m supposed to this info? Am I supposed to search every comment. If not, it’s pretty logical that I would have no idea who you are. Therefore when I ask “Did you do something”, it’s pretty valid and doesn’t deserve the response it got. All I KNOW of you is you are a commenter on this site. If you are involved in the legalities of porn or the industry at all, I don’t know why or how I would know that.
I’ve never before read writing where the attitude/snark bled through so much. How do you accomplish it? Does it just come from how you are in everyday life? Is it a learned trait? Who taught you? Calling the person you decide to continually engage “young grasshopper”, seeming to be angry and silly poker analogies are all so you. You have a nice style that’s all your own.
“You truly believe it wouldn’t be easier to spread disease without the test? If not then you believe it offers some protection.”
You didn’t really answer that. I don’t understand how calling it protection is false. If they would be more unsafe or more likely to spread disease without it then it is literally a protection. I think you mean prevention. It isn’t a prevention, but is a protection. I don’t see how if it decreases the risk it doesn’t fall under the definition of protection.
So you didn’t want an answer….. just wanted to call me a name again. You are awesome.
How did you mange to write that much in response to my tongue-in-cheek/snarky 2 lines? Are you becoming obsessed? You say I’m tiresome and yet take my most inane comments and write paragraphs in response. You must like feeling exhausted.
“I dont know why or how I would know that” And that is exactly why your comments are irrelevant. Sure, youre entitled to your opinion, and i am entitled to ridiculte them, its called a two way street.
I am a dick, a prick, your wildest dream come true and your worst nightmare. I am what I am, I know what i know, i make my own rules and there aint a fucking thing anybody can do about it. I’ve been threatened, bribed, accused, ignored,complimented, ripped off, and I am still here making trouble.
You deserve no response at all, you are entitled to nothing. you simply argue for the sake of argument, like a petulant child. Your lack of a fundamental grasp of the issues at stake is not much different than the dupe performers whose ‘positions’ on these issues you seem to regurgitate with regularity.
I dont write what I write for casual commenters here. Remember what I said about quality versus quantity. My comments are for the people here who are part of this system, not you.
But you are tenacious, I will give you that. I will always give credit where credit is due, and I call bullshit wherever I see it, on either side of the debate.
And for the record, Kayden Kross LIED when she was on the Stossel show about two years ago,,,,”The producers send us to get tested every 30 days,” implying that producers paid for it,,,,an outright LIE. Kayden hasnt had an original thought in her head since this debate began, she is a dupe, a puppet who does what she does to remain in the good graces of those last final flopping fish on the deck of the boat.
How does “send” imply payment? That’s only in your brain buddy. So you call me names and have zero respect for my opinions? WHY IN THE WORLD DO YOU KEEP WRITING THESE LONG RESPONSES TO ME? So because I don’t who you are and this issue doesn’t consume me as much as you, my comments are irrelevant?
”The producers send us to get tested every 30 days” literally says nothing about payment you inferred and assumed something that wasn’t there. You can be “sent” somewhere and still have to pay.
Keep up the good “ridiculte”.
“I’ve been threatened, bribed, accused, ignored,complimented, ripped off, and I am still here making trouble.”?
Still where making trouble? This site?
All of your comment are inane.
Erik, why are you so obssesed with my reply’s to your comments. My irreverant attitude comes from being at the center of this debate for so long. When you’ve had to deal, firsthand, with this shit for as long as I have it does take a toll. Then you run into little dips like yourself and it is just a little irritating. Thank you for providing the platform for me to vent a little bit.
See young Ghopper, you do serve a purpose for me, and that is all I care about.
For the record, do you even know where the “young grasshopper’ reference comes from. Now, quikcly as you can, snatch the pebble from my hand.”
And why are you so obssesed with how I resond to you?
You don’t see it as weird to complain about me being “tiresome”, stupid, etc. As you write a huge response? No disconnect in those 2 ideas at all. The responses are fine, but when they are accompanied by acting like you’re being put upon, it’s sorta ridiculous. If you respond, which is your choice, don’t act like you are being forced. If you’re going all the way back to the old TV show for the reference, I haven’t seen the show. In the context of your responses, I think you mean it to be snarky and to act as though you are the “master” or teacher. You are neither and referring to me by the nickname is silly. Even if you mean it in a nice way, it is weird.
Again, that brings up the why are you reading and responding question? If my comments are worthless 100%, why are you paying attention.
Also “All of your comment”(s)*
Erik: I think you miss the point of the self-congratulatory posts – since I’m at least one of the five. And, this isn’t meant to be a personal attack, so don’t take it that way.
For me – and I only speak for myself – its not a self-congratulatory pat on the back. I’m a fan of porn. I’m a fan of condomless porn – I’d rather watch porn without condoms than with condoms.
What got me interested in this debate is that because of what I have done for a living for more than thirty years, I actually know a little about the First Amendment. I may be one of the few posters who has been sued for matters related to the First Amendment – in fact, a total of four times. I’ve sat in a witness box in a federal courtroom as a defendant and defended myself using the First Amendment as my shield. I won all four suits, including the one suit that went to trial. Two of the verdicts were appealed to federal appellate courts and I won both appeals. I have been paid as a consultant to work on First Amendment suits filed against other major media organizations (CBS, the BBC, ABC). I’m not a lawyer, but I know something about the First Amendment, and how its applied to the media – and porn is media. I would read things from porn and porn advocates about how you can’t make porn do this or that because of the First Amendment and think – well, that’s not right – and I’d post something on Luke Is Back, where much of this debate first raged. The responses were pretty much immediate and vicious – more or less, told over and over again that I just didn’t understand the First Amendment and was obviously too stupid to ever understand it, so why didn’t I crawl back into my anti-porn hole.
Next, I’ve been a 1099 employee for 33 years. In addition, I’ve run a business that had 1099 employees. I’ve had to deal with accountants and employment lawyers over matters related to 1099 employees. I know a little bit about my rights as a 1099 employee and the responsibilities to me of the companies that contract with me as a 1099 employee. I know that when I am working for them, for instance, I am considered a legal extension of that company and they are responsible for my safety and my actions if I do something stupid while representing them – it actually says that in the contracts I sign. So, when I would read porn supporters say things like: “You don’t understand. It’s OK to beat them with tire irons, scald them with boiling water and infect them with diseases if they sign a release. They’re 1099 employees and the First Amendment protects us,” Well, I sort of knew that’s not the way the law works. But, again, was told repeatedly that I just didn’t get it.
Last, going back to my career, I’ve had to deal with workers comp and unemployment filings by employees who were injured on the job. I’ve had to deal with OSHA in my state and with employment lawyers who advised us on how to handle things, including our responsibility to independent contractors while working on our property. So, when porn would say, “you don’t understand, OSHA and workplace doesn’t apply here. They’re independent contractors. They work for themselves. They don’t work for us,” well, I knew those things not to be true in the real world where business takes place.
So, I think what happens is two-fold. The first, is that you get told you’re an idiot and too stupid to understand, and then a Federal judge rules in the Vivid suit that this ain’t about the First Amendment, so, lets just move on because condoms are a reasonable safety measure. Next, you get Cal-Osha coming in saying, we don’t care about no stinkin’ condom law, but we do care about workplace safety, and you’re exposing talent to blood borne pathogens. We don’t care if they’re W2 employees or 1099 contract employees, you’re operating an unsafe work environment and that’s got to stop. A production company says: You can’t tell us that. We’re porn. We’re gonna appeal, and gets its ass handed to it for the above reasons.
In other words, once this stuff moves from the message boards to the real world where porn gets filmed, customers make purchases, and business gets done, it moves from the philosophical and opinionated (This is America. You can’t tell me what to do) to the practical, which is that porn has to make a decision if it wants to keep operating in California. It can either act like a legitimate and responsible industry that makes a contribution to overall society that it claims it makes, or it can continue to operate like the drug business – moving from one street corner to another and trying to stay one step ahead of the cops.
The problem with porn, unlike drug dealers, is that porn is a public medium. It cannot hide its violations because they are filmed and broadcast for the world to see. OSHA doesn’t have to work very hard to identify the name of the production company that made a scene in violation of regulations or the people who participated.
So, porn is at a cross-roads – if it wants to stay in California, it can figure out how to comply with the regs or it can try to move to a more hospitable business climate with lots of sun and pretty girls and hope that AHF doesn’t file complaints with the OSHA in that locale or that the news media doesn’t start writing stories titled “Porn in our backyard: Is your child in danger?”
@erik
How does send imply payment?
By saying performers are “sent for testing” on a mainstream news program where the vast audience experience is compliance with regulations the statement implies the “sender” is paying.
From the applicant “sent for a drug test” to the employer voluntarily or regulated to require drug tests it is assumed the employer is picking up the tab.
Lol Erik keep trying to play spin doctor spokesman. This site?
If this site were such a non-entity it wouldn’t garner the rebuttal articles with incessant tweets linking those articles for damage control 🙂
Lol …no carried articles doesn’t mean a large audience…unless you take into account the publication subscriber numbers.
These weren’t obscure in house publications or small town weeklies. The mainstream news all have wide readership. The numerous labor safety publications are read by legislators worldwide, US to stay on top of issues that affect their voters/donors, international for pro/con takes on what’s happening in the US. These labor safety publications are read by HR & compliance officers of large corps on down to small business owners of every industry.
Next time you want to refute or spin something it would help if you had facts or reality backing that adversarial stance.
So because people will assume something wrong, the person speaking is at fault? If you infer that “send” means more than “send” then you are assuming and at fault for any miscommunication. What she said is true and factual. Payment not mentioned.
Yeah I do. I said Franco going there for a day is what more people know Kink for and I stand by it. You mentioned no publications and the type of publications you are speaking of have minimal readers compared to TMZ and the “JAMES FRANCO:PORN” type news sites. So you again are wrong.
What are you responding to? rebuttal articles? I’m not very aware of these. I simply said that MikeSouth gets far less site traffic and Twitter attention than sites he busts on. Is that the comment you are referencing. What spin exactly? You replied to this comment, but your response had nothing to do with it.: http://www.mikesouth.com/legal/cal-osha-using-2257-to-violate-producers-on-condom-law-and-permits-9253/comment-page-1/#comment-18192
Lol Erik you are persistent ..gotta give you that.
So a direct response offering a different view than the position you presented to take issue with a comment means ALL those people are wrong? That the initial comment you took exception to must be wrong?
What makes you the right/wrong moral judge & corrective authority? Sometimes life just isn’t about right/wrong up/down moral/immoral, it’s just what it is.
Lol clueless wonder…is your goal in life to prove others wrong?
No. Just stating facts. Prove them wrong if you like, instead of just combating my opinion by saying it’s wrong. Which without facts is just another opinion. Also, are you literally laughing out loud as you write every comment? If so, why are you typing the fact that you are laughing? If not, why exaggerate. Say “I’m smiling”, “I’m chuckling”, not everything has to be such a riot that it brings you into the realm of a teenage texter. You are again calling me names and saying I’m “clueless”. I can’t help wondering why you keep responding and why someone not agreeing with you gets you so agitated? I simply satated more people know of Kink from gossip news than from these recent fines/stories. I still think this is true and you haven’t convinced otherwise. How is that opinion clueless? Have a good day. Keep on LOLROTFLMAOWTFBRBTTYL or just do those normal things and not write them out in text.
When someone posts so much bullshit they can’t recall what they said to garner a response…they have issues. To take it further and link to prove a bullshit comment…well I just feel bad for your sorry ass.
Lol not “very aware” keep outing yourself little pup in training.
Apologies for hitting reply in the WRONG place 🙂
erik2690
1 day ago
5 commenters congratulating each other and in lock step. This isn’t a insulated site at all. Also, why do you make posts about how huge and great your site is compared to AVN and XBIZ? Numbers indicate XBIZ does x10 your traffic and AVN does x50 your traffic. I personally like your site more in many ways. You clearly dig more and it does feel personal. Good things. But you also have posts where you brag and or shit on AVN and XBIZ. Don’t totally get those posts. They are kinda whopping in traffic and Twitter followers. Important Stats for anything online.
LurkingReader
replied:7 hours
Lol Erik keep trying to play spin doctor spokesman. This site?
If this site were such a non-entity it wouldn’t garner the rebuttal articles with incessant tweets linking those articles for damage control
erik2690
replied:2 hours
What are you responding to? rebuttal articles? I’m not very aware of these. I simply said that MikeSouth gets far less site traffic and Twitter attention than sites he busts on. Is that the comment you are referencing. What spin exactly? You replied to this comment, but your response had nothing to do with it.: http://www.mikesouth.com/legal/cal-osha-using-2257-to-violate-producers-on-condom-law-and-permits-9253/comment-page-1/#comment-18192
I guess this thread is too long because I literally don’t know what you are referring to here: “So a direct response offering a different view than the position you presented to take issue with a comment means ALL those people are wrong?” I don’t know what “ALL those people” you are referencing. Other commenters?
right/wrong moral judge? That isn’t a thing. I get to make my own morals and decide what I think is right. I can then argue that against people with other opinions. I mean it’s a silly question that I could turn around and ask at you. Who made you right/wrong moral judge? The question makes no sense in many cases. If you are speaking about law(what is isn’t illegal) that’s a different issue. I have not once argued that porn hasn’t broken rules/law. It seems quite obvious that they have been outside many rules since porn began. I can argue whether the law/rule is good or whether I agree. That is what I have done. I am not nor have I ever said my opinion somehow dictates what will be in a grander sense. I have a different opinion than you, its really that simple.
So…. What did I ay there that was not true???? Just call it spin, but don’t say what was wrong?
“Lol not “very aware” keep outing yourself little pup in training.”
I keep trying to figure out what you mean by these jabs? My only thought is you think I’m linked/ a fan of either FSC or Rob Black. Am I getting warm? If so, why do you keep your suspicions of me secret? Assuming I’m on the right track, I can answer both. Been to FSC site and Twitter 1 time. During the 2nd HIV scare, I was looking for updates. Hate pretty much everything I’ve ever heard about Rob Black, never been to his site. Have heard about him second hand from this site and a bit on Twitter. My opinions differ from yours, but they are MY opinions. They are not some group think. If anything, you going to a site that reinforces your opinions is more an example of this. You keep calling me names saying I’m clueless and yet keep responding. Can you explain the psychology there?
“When someone posts so much bullshit”. This is how we know its an opinion. The same can be said of your posting habits. Your comment still makes little sense even in context. I think you might just take commenting a bit more seriously than most.
Listen up Ghopper, you yourself have said on this board several times that you really dont know much about the industry, except from what youve seen here, And for you to challenge people here who have DECADES of experience in this industry is just a little annoying. Bt,mharris,Luck, and myself have all been intimately involved with this issue for years, and not just posting on this site. You have not one single clue how absolutely absurd alot of your comments are.
Yes, you are entitled to your opinion, and you are entitled to be wrong, which you are most of the time. youre like a third grader doing additon and subtraction trying to talk to people doing advanced calculus. Now go have some ice cream and get a good nights sleep.
@jilted
Let’s not feed the troll anymore 🙂
Once again how am I supposed to know who any of you anonymous commenters are in real life? If you want to make the comment section an exclusive club, do that. Until then, there is no reason for me to place value on your anonymous opinion over my own.
“challenge people here who have DECADES of experience in this industry is just a little annoying.”
Challenge you on what? I’m not challenging or making factual claims. I’m stating opinions on what I think should/shouldn’t be. Again, why do you read and respond if I have no point worth listening to? Makes no sense. Newt Gingrich has infinity more political experience than me and yet I don’t yield any of my opinions to his. Your point of experience = correct opinions is silly. People in the bubble are wrong all the time in many fields. There are certainly ways in which experience helps. It doesn’t determine right/wrong. You undoubtedly know more of the rules and laws surrounding porn. That’s why I have never said “That rrule/law doesn’t exist, you’re incorrect”. Never said close to that.
*infinitely