This is well written and spot on, sent to me by a reader who knows…Thank you man!
For simplicity, I will use the acronym IEAU below when referring to the International Entertainment Adult Union.
Watch the documentary,”Live Nude Girls Unite!” It follows a successful unionization effort at a strip club. The campaign was about 20 years ago, but many of the difficulties are still relevant. IEAU members/organizers may find it helpful to contact the organizers of that campaign for two major reasons. First, there are almost certainly issues that an union of any sort of sex workers will encounter, and there is no sense in recreating the wheel.
Second, and perhaps I am wrong, but I suspect most strippers and porn performers are classified as “independent contractors.” Independent contractors have different (often fewer) legal rights than employees, especially when it comes to unionization / collective bargaining.
Is IEAU part of or working with any larger or already established union? Many unions represent workers who are not the traditional type of worker represented by those unions. For example, the United Auto Workers (UAW) has been involved with organizing university graduate students who are employed as “teaching assistants.” There are positive and negative aspects for IEAU to be affiliated with a larger union. IEAU should keep this in mind while also recognizing that many established unions may be hesitant to associate with “sex workers.”
Speaking of other unions, has IEAU tried reaching out to entertainment/”Hollywoood” unions such as the Screen Actors Guild? They may not be willing to work with IEAU publicly or officially, but I am certain that many of the issues relevant for SAG members are also relevant for adult performers. Independent contractor status and concern over residuals are two obvious similarities. My next comment is about membership, but I will go ahead and say that performers are not the only ones with a guild/union. Remember some of the past screenwriters’ strikes?
Membership. While it is nice to be open to everyone, it is not feasible, sensible, or necessarily legal. For instance, managers are not allowed to join unions; you might remember claims that Walmart was illegally classifying regular employees as managers so that those employees were not allowed to vote in the unionization campaign. (Unions can become the collective bargaining agent for employees if the employer will acknowledge a “card check,” but this rarely happens. More often, there is an official unionization vote.) Company owners, for instance, should NOT be eligible for IEAU membership (unless the owner is also a performer, but then IEAU only represents the individual as a performer and not an owner).
Dues. Union members typically do not pay dues until there is a collective bargaining agreement in place with employer(s). Union membership is not – and should not – be open to any random person willing to sign up or pay a membership fee.
Officers. While some seem to think it appears sketchy or shady who appears on the ballots for officers (and lack of options), I would recommend that potential members not worry too much about this issue for now. However, it IS a real concern in the future if/when IEAU establishes itself. At the moment, electing officers is mostly about following formal procedures and establishing credibility, and it not uncommon for these people to have connections to the core organizers (not just in unions, but also corporate boards for small LLCs and not-for-profit organizations). It may also be a legal requirement to elect officers since IEAU has obtained recognition from the US government, or so it seems. Finally, whether people like it or not, these types of elections (not just in unions, but also corporate boards for small LLCs and not-for-profit organizations) very often have uncontested elections (e.g., only one candidate for the office). The last comment may not seem reassuring, but it is very common.
Public face (spokespersons, media relations, etc). At the moment, IEAU is publicly represented by members rather than full-time paid union organizers. As a result, the public presence is controlled by members but may also appear less professional than established unions, such as many errors in grammar and spelling on public forums (e.g., Twitter and mikesouth.com). Unfortunately, this issue is one of those “growing pains” that every organization has to deal with in some form. I will simply say for now that several of the fights on public forms should have been dealt with outside of the public eye, and all involved parties should make sure that is how things happen in the future.
OSHA / condoms / testing / workplace safety. This comment will piss off a lot of people, which is part of the reason I didn’t place it above. If you want adult entertainment to be treated like a legitimate profession, you also have to treat it like a legitimate profession. Regardless of which side you choose, the idea of condom-optional is a fantasy. Read various adult websites and forums (including mikesouth.com), and you should quickly realize that “condom-optional” means that only “no condom” performers will be hired, which means it really is not an option. Seriously, imagine what would happen if construction companies campaigned for “hard-hat optional” but also made it clear that anyone who insists on being provided with and using a hard hat will not be hired. In practice, “condom-optional” effectively means “no condom.” Personally, I would be fine with a legitimate condom-optional policy, but I honestly believe that any performer who exercises that option once will not be hired a second time. Thus, it’s not really optional at all. If you have to choose between condom-mandatory or condom-free, there is a clear winner if you are making your decision based on sensible and reasonable workplace safety issues. Workplace safety, by the way, does not mean that there is no risk; it simply means that we have reduced/protected for/eliminated those risks within reasonable bounds.
There is certainly much more to discuss, but these are obvious starting points.
——–
A Reader
Assistant Professor
Department of Economics (AE1)
XXXXXXXXX University
39 Responses
“While some seem to think it appears sketchy or shady who appears on the ballots for officers (and lack of options), I would recommend that potential members not worry too much about this issue for now.”
I would like to know on which premises you say so. First of all, this elections officers and board are those who will run the Union tomorrow (and my understanding is that they will be in office for 5 years); so, how this shouldn’t “worry” people is beyond me. But of course you might know what I don’t, in which case it might be nice to hear more about it from you.
Second of all, the shadiness resides in the method, before that in the candidates. When you Union calls for unity and encourages people to submit their nominations and then those nominations are eradicated from the ballots and nobody knows by whom and why and those candidates haven’t even been made aware of it, this becomes a very important issue. An issue which mines future credibility of the Union. Put the nominations in the ballots and have the people vote. Or be clear and tell people that the Union is a private matter, so you don’t waste people time and you don’t take advantage of people reputation by associating them with the Union, until this is is convenient. If you live a lie, you’ll die a liar. This would be irrelevant if we were talking about personal lives; but a Union whose intent is to represent a vast category of people is going to find its reputation deeply damaged with such a false start.
Thank you to the reader who wrote that it wraps up most of my issues in a nice package.
US gov regulatory agencies are closing loopholes for employers who pay workers as independent contractors to avoid associated expenses and liabilities. In some industries workers pay be properly classified as IC for payroll purposes yet qualify as ‘intermittent, temporary or seasonal’ employee for worker rights purposes. Stakeholder shell games are also harder to play with labor agencies using established criteria to assess and assign liabilities in multi-employer situations.
Couldn’t agree more about IEAU seeking advice if full participation isn’t available from exisiting unions in and out of porn. Some ideas for IEAU to consider …
* Use union networking to develop policies, prioritize goals into a five year plan.
* Run plans by an experienced union attorney BEFORE publication.
* Limit social media posts to union related activities, meetings and issues.
* Verify all information communicated by the union or on its behalf by authorized speakers is accurate and factual.
The last two are pet peeves of mine. The union twitter account is currently marketing performers and their content leaving one to wonder if theyre advocating porn or sex-worker rights.
Reading the plan to use phone-tree to warn members that OSHA is banging on doors or a performer tested positive was a definite WTF moment. IIRC it promted a suggestion to check with a qualified attorney.
5/4/16 @ientertainadult tweeted “Just to give you an example…. We meet with #OSHA not @cal_osha”
In California OSHA is administered by #Calosha. Their twitter is @CA_DIR not @cal_osha which belongs to CalOSHA Advisor with the following bio.
“Publisher of the Cal/OSHA Compliance Advisor for safety professionals in California. ca-safety.com Joined April 2010”
Lastly…since I got on a roll. Regarding performer-producer members and the inherently adversarial nature of employer/employee interests. Define specific employer/employee roles/tasks for frequently encountered issues to ensure the union intent of protecting workers rights isn’t lost in personalities.
“If you want adult entertainment to be treated like a legitimate profession, you also have to treat it like a legitimate profession.”
It is so gratifying to see someone else echoing the sentiments I’ve expressed on this site since the condom debate (and union debate) began. For two long, porn has tried to have things both ways – it portends to be a legitimate industry but in reality, operates like outlaws and gangsters.
Beyond that, I agree with every point in this post.
Ya the author really nailed it but look at his position…he should know…its valuable advice and once again the caliber of my readers really shines through. That is what amazes me the most… I mean here I am a lowly godless pornographer (LOL) and look at thepeople who read and comment on my site…I am really not worthy..I AM grateful. You guys rock!
One thing about OSHA these days. More and More workers are being killed on the job in this country do to the lack of resourses available to enforce and try and keep the American worker safe. This Union and its members need to stick together and stop kissing the Producer’s butts and allowing the conditions to happen. You are only are performer for so long these days and its….next…move to the left and let the next new and fresh and young and dumb come in.
Too many workers also endure catastrophic illness/injury when a stakeholders bottom line is more important than the people who make a bottom line possible. Part of OSHA design is the expectation that stakeholders are willing ready and able to balance their bottom line without treating workers like disposable coffee filters.
I wonder what % of porn girls have suffered anal prolapses? Also has this % gone up or down over the last 20-30 years? I’m sure there are no figures to be found as its swept under the rug.
One never knows. Girls who retire don’t seem to be writing “tell all” books. It is probably up now simply because many girls are trying to get prolapses on purpose because it is popular. I have heard talks about girls from the early to mid 2000s that did so many anal scenes that they had surgery after they left the industry so they didnt need pads or depends for the rest of their life. It’s a physical job, you don’t come out of it without some damage (STI such as herpes, “loose” a hole, etc”.). Most physical jobs and sports leave you with life long injuries and porn is no different.
Mike, I hate to denigrate another of your so-called experts but why exactly should the advice of an Assistant Professor of Economics be considered? An assistant professor is usually an ENTRY-LEVEL position for eventual tenure at most universities. While I can understand his/her reluctance to name his institution, it does make a difference when evaluating an academic, as would some info from his/her CV. That said, he appears correct regarding dues and officer selections.
Mike, you as a self-described lowly pornographer probably know more about this subject than the economist. Have either he/her or you ever been in a union?
Speaking of qualifications for giving advice, LR, you advised the union to check with an attorney re some matters. Didn’t you see on the union site the firm which helped set up the union and the firm they are receiving training from?
Sabrina, you keep complaining that the union did not accept your self-nomination. Didn’t you see the requirements for petitions etc?
Some posts here are so long they sound like the old days of legalese when attorneys of the 19th century were paid by the word!
If you have good advice, why not contact the union, instead of posting here? I seldom see the closure, the rest of the story here, to some interesting stories, sorry Mike.
@bfi
My suggestion was to work with an experienced UNION attorney. Law like medicine has a vast range of specialty areas. While it’s true attorneys cant control their clients too many general administrative issues are falling through the cracks with IEAU. Not for nothing…porn lawyers are more suited to the stakeholder side of the equation.
PS
Despite IEAU founder making it clear they’re interested in porn insiders I did extend an offer to the union… they can get my contact info from MIke. If they want something other than my unsolicited opinions it’s on them to let me know.
So LR, you are saying that the two law firms they are using are NOT union attorneys? The firm they are getting training from, Weinberg, Roger & Rosenfeld, appears to be a major law firm for unions and worker representation, and I believe the law firm which assisted in the formation is also experienced in labor union representation. Wow, LR, I guess you thought I was too stupid to know that attorneys often specialize in certain areas. Did you also know that only some jurisdictions certify these specialties? LR, please stop giving legal advice unless and until you are admitted to the practice of law somewhere. reminds me of when Uncle Peg used to give legal opinions and advice. Of course he also falsely claimed to have been an attorney. You can contact IEAU directly yourself, they do not need to ask Mike for your contact info. I am tired of too many cooks stirring the pot, sorry!
@bfi
Take a peek at Phyllisha response to Sabrina a few days ago…no where does she mention Weinberg, Roger & Rosenfeld, nor were they listed on the site in early February when I checked out the union and read the documents IEAU submitted to DoL. Since Sabrina posting the website has undergone extensive reworking.
Be very clear ….I am not an attorney nor have I ever claimed to be one. This uneducated homemaker holds her head high appreciating what an accomplishment it is to understand enough about labor issues to be confused with someone who had the advantage of a Vanderbilt degree.
By the way, if you’re gonna play gotcha you better have something to be get your target with. GFY with insinuating I’m not qualified to suggest anyone seek appropriate legal counsel. “LR, please stop giving legal advice unless and until you are admitted to the practice of law somewhere” if you think I’m giving legal advice then you are too stupid to know the difference between experienced opinion and the practice of law.
Beyond the offer already extended I will not be contacting IEAU nor hesitate to share my opinions or ask questions I consider relevant. If blog comments are disruptive to you or IEAU feel free to ignore them. I am under no obligation to you nor are you or IEAU beholden to me in anyway.
You are NOT qualified, simple. But you of course can say anything you wish, but don’t ever tell me to GFY. That is so easy to say online, and something K never say even to the worst troll. So please do NOT say it to me.
I agree that jobs come with risk of injury. However, I haven’t heard of too many construction, foundry, fireman or police jobs coming with a statistically significant on-the-job injury of lifetime diapers (which is why I don’t particularly care for double or triple anal — or double/triple penetration into any human orifice for that matter due to the real possibility of tearing injuries, especially to the anus or vagina). I don’t think the government should attempt to eliminate the risk of injury to the point where the industry disappears but there really should be an attempt to explain the risks to performers before they perform in their first scene. AIM for its many flaws did at least attempt to do so. I don’t have a great solution for this but I think performers should make informed decisions after carefully considering the risks and benefits of performing in the adult film/internet industry.
One assembly shop I did some freelance accounting work for about 20 years ago had their employees and contract workers watch a detailed video on their first day of work explaining the risks of the jobs they could be taking on (that part wasn’t applicable to me for the most part). The video also explained what workman’s comp is and how to file and receive medical treatment if needed (the latter was why I was required to view the video even though I did not work as a laborer). The professional contract firm that I had handling my contract work’s representative (a professional contract firm is essentially a temp agency for professional contract workers, even Manpower has a professional division nowadays) also handed me a pamphlet about 20 pages thick explaining what what I was allowed to do and what I was not allowed to do in compliance with their workman’s comp insurance policy (this was in Michigan where employers have a choice of workman’s comp insurers — unlike California where the vast majority of employers are required to insure through State Fund). This would be advisable to tailor to the adult film industry and implement. Agents could be required to have their first-time clients view a video and read a pamphlet approved by a group of appropriate, bona fide medical professionals detailing the different sex acts, risks and probability of VD transmission for these different sex acts as well as explaining the process for filing a claim with State Fund and the fact that all employers in CA are required to advance up to $10K to cover immediate medical care before a State Fund (or their alternate insurer if an employer is somehow exempt from the requirement of insuring through State Fund) claim can be filed if an on the job injury takes place. I don’t have a good solution for performers representing themselves viewing the video now that we have decentralized VD testing and many porn sets don’t have either VCR/DVD players with televisions or computers connected to the internet to facilitate viewing of such a video on set although adult film directors could be required to give new performers not represented by an agent the pamphlet, make them sit down and read it and then have the new performer sign a statement confirming that he/she did read the pamphlet in its entirety. A laptop with a good battery (or access to electricity) and a DVD drive could be used for viewing the video assuming it only needs to be played once or twice that day, for example my laptops (they are six and two years old) will run for three and six hours, respectively at full CPU load with recently installed extended-run batteries available for less than $40 and easily installed (some laptops made in the past 24 months or so have 9-12 hour run time although many laptops made in the past year do not have user-replaceable batteries so this may be a problem in the future) or there is electrical service available. I suppose if the video is encoded at a low bit rate (to save on expensive data overage charges or throttling after a certain amount of data is used for the month) a smartphone could be used for this purpose as well in most areas. It is also possible to save the video onto a micro-SD card and play it on a smartphone or Android tablet — again this only works if the video needs to be played only once or twice per day.
FYI, a State Fund claim can usually be filed either on the day of the injury or if late at night the next morning. There is no reason in CA why workman’s comp related medical care is delayed just because State Fund is closed for the night and a claim could not be filed immediately.
@bfi
What qualifications are required to suggest an orgainzation consult with appropriate legal counsel? What specific legal advice did I provide that crosses the line to the realm of JD admitted to practice law?
You can say anything you wish just don’t be surprised when someone you’re intentionally trying to piss off calls your bluff and adds GFY….especially if that someone is me.
A BA, JD, and admission to the bar are required to give legal advice., not just some glorified not for profit functionary who tries to scare people who disagree. I’m not going to waste my time nor intelligent readers’ time to compile the list but I’ve been quietly reading this great site for years. Now you are trying to read minds saying I intentionally tried to piss you off. I never tried to intentionally piss you off, you just piss me off, and then you have the nerve to say GFY. I will not lower myself to your standards to tell you where to go, but you really need to get a life and stop trying to tell others what to do, which I’m doing right now for you. You will not scare me off you troll.
PS Now can we get back to a discussion of the union by people who can actually constructively contribute?.. I’ve seen posts re injuries and other off-topic subjects. If anyone bothers to look at the union site, you will see they are aware of these issues; that is why they have formed the union. If you do not like the union, do not join.
So, I have worked in publishing and entertainment as a content provider – television screenwriter – for more than 30 years. I was a member of the Writers Guild East for 15 years and was asked to join, and declined to join, the New York-based union for magazine and newspaper journalists – which has never accomplished much of anything. I have literally paid my dues. Here is my experience with the two:
The screenwriters guild and other guilds related to television, film and radio, such as the actors, directors and producers guilds, are successful for several reasons. One is that there is so much money in those industries that funding them is not the issue it might be in other industries. As a screenwriter, an 18% contribution from my $50,000 television project didn’t go very far to keeping things afloat; 18% from the guy who was paid $1 million for a high grossing action flick pays a lot of bills. There are no million paydays in porn – if the union works on a percentage, as does the other entertainment guilds, you’re going to be funding it with 18% of $500 blowjob scenes.
You have the blessing of the states of California and New York and the cooperation of the industry players, even if they do not like it. You cannot work in entertainment unless you’re a member of the union – it’s really that simple, and no one flaunts the rules. Maybe I’m wrong, maybe on this point – which would be a first – porn producers would get together and say: You know what, we think a porn union is a fabulous thing and we won’t hire any talent who isn’t a member of the union. I don’t see it.
Whether they like it or not, the industry pays into the system. When I was writing television movies for the network, the production company that hired me had to contribute towards my pension plan. While screenwriters are independent contractors, you go on the payroll of the production company during the project and they contribute the employers 7.625% responsibility towards Medicare and Social Security.
Union members play by the rules – when there is a union walkout, no one writes. I was working on a TV movie for ABC back in the 90’s. The head of the production company – a very well-known producer – was also a respected television writer. The union went on strike before the shooting script was finished. The head of the production company could have finished it himself so that production could start on time, but he refused, even though it ultimately cost him money on that film. Name the actress who won’t do a quick $500 blowjob scene if she’s short on rent money, regardless of whether its a union shoot.
Last is that there are real benefits to joining the union – they set the minimum payscale and it is enforced because your contract is reviewed by the union before work begins; the benefits are real – I had a brief career in television writing but qualify for a modest pension and insurance benefits; the healthcare benefits were simply amazing – they were far superior to the benefits I get today from a leading publishing company (and, they’re not bad).
In other words, there is truly something in it for the union members.
On the other side of the union is the writers union that was formed in New York in the 90’s to protect freelance journalists who work for magazines and newspapers. It went precisely nowhere because there was not a single publisher who said it would only contract with union members. About the only benefit to joining was that they had a health plan that you could buy into – which I suppose was easier than shopping on your own – but it was all out of your pocket and since I didn’t live in New York City, I was outside their range of coverage.
Unless you truly get buy in and cooperation from production companies, and unless there is discipline and solidarity from porn talent, at best you’ll get an organization that can offer access to health insurance and advice on how to do your taxes and set up a SEP IRA plan for your retirement. With Obamacare, anyone can get health insurance, H&R Block will do your taxes, and Schwab will help you set up a retirement account for the self-employed. But you won’t have a performer’s union like mainstream.
I’ll go back to the most important thing the professor wrote, which is that if porn – and porn performers – want to be treated like legitimate business people and a legitimate industry, then porn – and porn performers – have to start acting like legitimate business people.
One last thought, Sabrina and others have criticized the union for not presenting itself in a professional manner. That is that its website and communications are replete with misspellings, grammatical errors and the like. In one post, I suggested that they invest some money in a copy editor and the pushback was: They can’t afford that. At the same time, someone on this thread is suggesting they have money for a crack legal team with union organizing experience. I have no idea what is the state of their finances, where the union is getting its seed money, or what is has for legal resources. What I know is that if it wants to get buy in from the state, if it wants healthcare, accounting and investment companies to get involved to offer benefits to its members, it has to invest in creating a professional image – otherwise, the way it presents itself will only reinforce the image of porn held by legitimate businesses, which is that they don’t want to be involved.
If you can’t afford $25 to $50 an hour for a freelance copywriter to help you get your act together (heck, reach out to Cindy Loftus or Kelli), you can’t afford to be in business. Some performer with a few bucks – a Jesse Jane or Kayden Kross – should publicly underwrite that project to show that they give a damn.
This is not big bucks, people. It’s a few grand that would be wisely spent. You can’t treat forming a union like doing a gonzo shoot with your iPhone and your girlfriend because you can’t afford name brand talent and a crew.
@bfi
You are incorrect and uninformed. I was ASKED to be a candidate. It’s not about me, it’s about lies. If you can’t understand the importance of what I’m saying, just wait and see.
@BT
It’s not even about affording stuff; many volunteers have offered their skills, time and working force to the Union. They have been dismissed as soon as in exchange for their free services and time they have asked for transparency and clarity about the roles involved.
“If porn – and porn performers – want to be treated like legitimate business people and a legitimate industry, then porn – and porn performers – have to start acting like legitimate business people.”
EXACTLY MY POINT, BT, THANKS!
Would you trust somebody that repeatedly lie to you? If you guys would, good for you. Just don’t complain in the future when you get screwed for real by those same people who are telling you lies today.
Remember this: this Union main purpose is personal financial gain by a small bunch of people. Nothing bad with running a business. But a Union should be a different thing. For a Union, I would be willing to work for free but I would pretend to know what I am working for and to receive transparency and respect. For a business I don’t care the use that you make of the product of my services, as long as they get paid. Do you see the difference?
Would you donate 100K to someone who tells you they are for a good cause, but doesn’t tell you the cause or lies about it? I’ll pass, thanks.
Mr Harris.
Well, a life time construction guy may be in lifetime back pain or have hip or knee injuries requiring surgeries, etc. Is that any better than a leaky asshole that needs a surgery? Is an anal injury any worse than being 50 years old and forgetting what you had for breakfast or slurring your words or massively suicidal because you were a boxer or football player and have head trauma? I don’t know.
I know you are trying to frame me as someone who is dismissing porn injuries. I am not. what i am saying is it is a physical career and there are physical risks involved. Should the “porn workplace” be safer and offer more protections, sure enough. However, you can not undertake a 3 year porn career an come out of it without anything (whether it is herpes, or a few treatable STI’s , or a loose rectum), just like you can not undertake 3 years in the NFL and come out of it with nothing wrong with your head, knees or back.
We need to look at porn as a physical career like others. Informing performers of all the risks, mitigating them, etc. However, it is naive to be outraged at an injury; they happen and they will continue to happen. Women will continue to want to work in the sex industry and if they are informed and still make the choice, I think there has to be some personal responsibility for the outcome. Girls can make a living in porn and escorting offering vaginal only in one-on-one scenes. If they are willing to take physical risks like anal, double anal, gangbangs, etc, then they will make more money. That is a personal choice.
Any time I write what about to write, people think I’m a jerk, but here’s where these analogies about construction workers, football players and boxers fail.
In every instance, some level of protection is mandated and enforced. There is no question that repeatedly getting your bell rung could lead to serious issues down the road; but bare-knuckle brawling has been outlawed. Fighter wear headgear and kidney belts when they spar; they wear gloves, cups and mouth protection in the ring. A doctor is onsite to call it quits if a fighter is too injured to continue, even if the spirit is willing.
Football players wear helmets, shoulder pads, hip pads and knee pads. Is that enough to prevent injury from violent hits?
In both boxing and football, some types of hits are illegal – for the protection of the athletes.
Construction workers are required to wear hard hats, safety goggles, ear protection, protective gloves and steel toed shoes. Depending on the job, they may be required to wear back support.
Will some injuries still occur? Of course. But basic safety precautions are mandated and enforced or an employer has hell to pay.
Porn’s view is that the only level of protection needed in the industry is a testing process for some, but not all, STDs. Porn’s view is also that no behavior, no matter how outlandish or violent, is out of bounds unless it involves small children, puppy dogs or close relatives.
My point – there is no other “sport” or profession analogous to porn, not even an MMA cage fight.
So, finally, everyone falls back on — if they are willing to take physical risks ….. to ….. make more money, that is a personal choice.
Again, that’s great in your personal life. If you want to get fucked up the butt by three dudes simultaneously or prolapse for your boyfriend, have at it. But porn is a workplace. A construction worker cannot make a personal choice to work without protective gear – repeatedly doing so is grounds for dismissal. A fighter can’t make a personal choice to fight without a mouth guard or to let his opponent fight without gloves. A football player can’t make a personal choice to play without a helmet.
These analogies just don’t hold up.
Your protections only can stop STI’s by mandating condoms. Other injuries such as anal, or STI’s spread by oral sex or swallowing semen are not addressed by a condom rule. What protective gear to you propose here? Dental dams and mandatory condoms for blowjobs and no more anal?
Hey, I get the safety issue and am fully interested in seeing things get better for performers. There is no magic solution and if you do go the way of 100% condoms you unfortunately have a culture that will not buy your porn in large numbers. Meaning, films are done elsewhere. Bareback porn isn’t going away no matter what laws are passed. There is safety and there is safety that kills the revenues. I get it is a tough situation. But we have to be honest that if 1000 porn buyers are given a choice between their favorite girl doing a condom scene, and one she did in Europe bareback, most are investing their money in the latter.
So, you bring up the anal issue. What is your protective gear solution for this? I don’t see one. That really is performers choice. “Do I want to increase my income and do a double anal scene with the potential risks (and not everyone gets hurt by double anal just so you are aware)”.
@ bfi
you’re killing every benefit of the doubt harbored about this union.
I personally love getting doubled anal. Just take a few hits of some good Grade A crack and its all “feels” so good.
You guys are missing the point, which is really quite simple when people get off their “it’s personal choice” soap boxes. Porn is a workplace. As such, there are workplace rules that employers have to abide by. One of them is to provide a safe working environment, or to take reasonable steps to ensure a safe working environment.
Before the Vivid suit, people said you can’t mandate condoms because porn has a first amendment right to do anything it wants and it doesn’t want to use condoms, and, oh, by the way, performers are contract employees who choose what they do. And ….. a federal court rejected that, it was upheld by a federal appeals court and porn dropped the case. The judge said that when it comes to STDs, its a public health issue. Porn does not have a First Amendment right to put performers’ health at risk just to film without condoms. That’s now what’s called settled law. I will grant you that LA County has no desire to enforce it, but they could.
Now we get to the injury part. Folks on many boards have argued that workplace rules don’t apply to porn because talent are independent contractors, they can do whatever they want. OSHA has and is stepping in and saying, sorry, that’s just not the case. You’re required to provide a safe workplace. Remember that the Kink shoot involving Cameron Bay is in litigation, and workplace safety is a big part of that suit. OSHA is also willing to try to enforce the condom rule.
The second argument is porn performers know what they’re getting into, its a physical industry where the risk of injury is real, just like playing football, working construction or being a boxer. People are going to get hurt, but hey, performers choose to perform these very high risk acts because they want more money, so where’s the harm. It’s a personal choice.
And that all sounds good. Great, in fact. What I’m trying to point out is that there are rules governing construction, professional sports and boxing. Protective gear is required. With regard to sports, doctors are always on site. Certain physical acts in sport are illegal – you can’t chop block, leg whip or face mask in football – even if you offer a running back or a linebacker more money to allow his opponents to chop block him. But, porn believe it is OK to offer a porn actress more money to prolapse her rectum. You can’t rabbit punch or put rocks in your gloves if you’re a boxer, but you can pay a porn actress more money to donkey punch her or to throat fuck her so hard she vomits and then ask her to lick up the vomit.
All I’m trying to say is: Any of that stuff would be disallowed in any other industry, and, if regulators began to look hard at porn, they would probably disallow it in porn because its a workplace issue. If the only way someone can perform an act is that they’re given some kind of pain killer, than that act probably isn’t allowed in the workplace.
Put another way, you wouldn’t be allowed to intentionally break an actresses nose or arm or shoot her with a small caliber gun in a non lethal area just because she agrees to do it and you pay her extra.
With regard to your last point: Not everyone gets hurt by double anal ….. Of course, I’m aware. Not everyone gets hit in the head on a construction site, blows out a knee playing football or ruptures a kidney in the boxing ring. It’s still a workplace violation to be on a contruction site without a hard hat, to play football without pads or to rabbit punch. Workplace rules are in place for the exception and not the rule.
Joe, I don’t intend to frame you as uncaring for or unconcerned about porn performers. I am just big on informed decision making and that workers (in any industry, not just sex work) should have the necessary information to make that informed decision. I think I am taking quite a liberal stance — I am against a mandatory condom rule, against OSHA’s and Weinstein’s campaign to run porn out of California and am not suggesting a ban on acts likely to cause injury like double/triple anal or 50 man to one woman gangbangs. I just think a performer (and director for that matter) should have the information necessary to make an informed choice instead of doing (or directing) the scene with only partial information and become surprised when that triple anal tears her asshole and/or large intestine in three places and she ends up in the ICU on IV Dilaudid for a month and shitting in an ostomy bag for the rest of her life. IMO it isn’t too much to ask for a adult film director to take five minutes before a scene to explain the pros and cons of doing whatever he envisions the scene to be before having his film tech start filming the scene. Some studios (mainly gonzo BDSM studios) do this already and a few even videotape the conversation and tack it onto either the beginning or end of the scene.
I will also note that I suspect most people would choose a bad back over lifetime diapers if forced to choose, that is why I come down more harshly on anal injuries. Maybe it is because I have a bad back (unfortunately from labor around the house so there aren’t workman’s comp payments involved). I have also cared for an adult that required diapers at the end of her life, comparing the two I come to my conclusion. As for the back injury, I have done a lot of my own home repair, gardening and maintenance over the years and that is the likely cause, I had the information to make an informed decision as to whether to do that hard labor so it is my own damn fault and not anyone else’s (my much younger sister has also made that same decision many times with similar consequences — she now has a back injury of her own so this may run in the family).
@harris Matt, are you still considerably overweight? Losing weight will help reduce the stress on your low back and alleviate the pain.
@BT
Well, sir, you tell me i am on a soapbox, and you go back about workplace safety. Great, answer my questions then. What do you propose to protect them from anal injury or spread of STI’s not covered by condom’s on the penis. Are you picking and choosing what is workplace safety and what is informed choice? I am a bit foggy on your points because keep going on about workplace safety without suggesting what should be done on a porn set (other than Condoms which only covers a part of the risks, and which hurts the earning potential of everyone in porn at the same time).
@mharris
I get the whole anal injury thing. Your example is an extreme case, but yes, it can happen. There are surgical procedures that can be done so there is not a “lifetime of diapers” when one of the prolapsers decides to retire from porn. Not so much with serious back issues from other physical jobs.
And let’s be frank here. Most porn girls have “spent the money in their head” before they show up on the porn shoot that day. If you explain to them “hey, if you do a bunch of double anal scenes in the next 2 years you may have leakage when you have to shit and may need a procedure to fix it”…… most are still going to do the scene. We put “Smoking can kill you” on a pack of smokes and the girls are still buying them by the carton.
I believe so strongly that people have to be responsible for their choices. Yes, workplaces need to provide safety measures. However, all the safety measures possible still leave us with people in physical jobs retiring with injuries (sports, NFL, construction, porn, you name it).
You have to be safe, mitigate the risks.. however, each and every person entering a physical career needs to understand they will likely leave that career in a different physical condition than when they entered it.
And really, is the pack of smokes a girl consumes every day that basically guarantees a shortened lifespan somehow ok, but we pull out our pitchforks that she might get herpes or an anal injury? IF people are willing to poison themselves, there has to be personal responsibility accross the board.
You’re confusing me with someone else. Yes, I go back to workplace safety because that is the issue. Someone else is talking about adult diapers; that ain’t me.
Joe, for over a year, I argued with people on this site and Luke Is Back about the condom regulation. For a year, people attacked me and said I didn’t know what I was talking about because I simply didn’t understand the First Amendment (even though a.) in my profession I’ve been involved in four First Amendment lawsuits including one that went to trial and b.) separately, I’ve worked as a consultant on media lawsuits involving the First Amendment). And then, low and behold, the courts ruled exactly the way I said they would rule because I took this out of the realm of a dorm room argument fueled by too much beer, pizza and weed and into the real world of the courts and the law.
Now, we’re in an argument over workplace safety – I’ve run a business for over 30 years where I’ve had to comply with OSHA regulations. That business isn’t in California, but it involves OSHA all the same. But, what the heck do I know.
What I am trying to explain, unsuccessfully, is that personal responsibility applies to actions in your personal life. Personal responsibility and choice is not a legal argument in a court of law or when OSHA brings a case over a workplace action. Personal responsibility does not get around workplace safety.
But, hey, let’s not you and I argue about this because you’re dug in on believing that personal choices rules the day and I’m dug in on the fact that no OSHA case in the history of the workplace has been won on personal responsibility.
So, let’s agree to disagree and watch what happens in three pending actions – all of which to one degree or another involve porn and workplace safety. The first is Cameron Bay’s lawsuit against Kink, where Kink is arguing, hey, she knew what she was getting into, and she is arguing that she was injured on the job because Kink didn’t have workplace safety processes in place.
There are several pending OSHA actions against Kink, some of which specifically involve workplace safety – and, Kink is not arguing personal responsibility in those.
And, the OSHA actions against James Deen, where you could’ve writing part of Deen’s defense, because he is specifically arguing that he shouldn’t be fined because, hey, this is America and he gave talent the option of performing with or without condoms and WTF, they made a personal choice.
If you’re right, all that stuff is going to go away, and I’ll buy you a monthly subscription to the double anal porn site of your choice.
@joe
” Great, answer my questions then. What do you propose to protect them from anal injury or spread of STI’s not covered by condom’s on the penis. Are you picking and choosing what is workplace safety and what is informed choice? I am a bit foggy on your points because keep going on about workplace safety without suggesting what should be done on a porn set (other than Condoms which only covers a part of the risks, and which hurts the earning potential of everyone in porn at the same time).”
Earning potential is irrelevant. Asbestos may be cheaper than other insulation. Fiberglass insulation is still dangerous if inhaled or rubbed on the skin. What about the earning potential of home builders?
As for anal injury, OSHA hasn’t come after that directly, have they? There is no penis width to asshole circumference measurement standard yet. It may fall under normal workplace injury regulations which could be vague and if a violation occurs negligence could be decided on a case-by-case basis. Having a b-hole tear and claiming you were following workplace safety may be tough when there were two giant wangs going into a hole that was obviously too small. Even if the director’s lawyer demonstrates incompetence on behalf of the defendant by showing his inability to insert the wooden cylinder into the correctly-sized hole on a children’s toy, there was still an unsafe working environment.
When it comes to the spread of STD’s that are spread with a condom porn is getting a pass. They should count their stars and wrap up because it could be worse. OSHA could just claim that it isn’t safe. People still have the first amendment right to make porn. It just can’t be a job where money is exchanged.
Porn gets a pass on most things. Being defiant of OSHA regulations will only bring the hammer down harder and faster. They’re being watched. They should use their heads.
Yes, I am still the biggest person in town — I can just about guarantee that after I ascend to that BDSM porn palace in the sky (where I will get my wish of hogtying and caning Marilyn Monroe and Mary Pickford) my corpse-overfilled casket will be hauled to the cemetery with a forklift instead of pallbearers (fortunately we have family friends that actually own forklifts so getting one for the day isn’t an issue). Seriously, I have been told by my pain doc that with the back injury I have losing weight would only have a modest effect as the damage has already been done (although it would be beneficial in other ways). My losing weight also entails starving myself and turning into the meanest person in the county as I have a metabolic issue that keeps weight on me. Thanks for the concern, though.
I don’t think I am “pull(ing) out (my) pitchforks” by suggesting that performers be given the information required to make a fully informed choice. I am not suggesting a ban on risky acts any more than I would suggest a ban on those cigars I used to smoke from time to time (if you think those Parliments the chickies in porn smoke nowadays put poison into their lungs try having them switch to Olivas for a few years). We are dealing with adults here, they are capable of making adult decisions. If they make a bad decision based on purely financial reasoning, that is on them (that happens all the time even outside of porn, ask Katie Morgan about smuggling drugs, getting arrested at the border and spending two years sentenced to being forcibly ass fucked by every male guard nightly in the federal prison where she served her time next time you see her — and she hadn’t ever even talked to anyone in porn at the time she was a drug smuggler).
However, I think people should have the opportunity to have what information they need to make the right decision for them. That isn’t possible if the chickie attended HS in Mississippi where the only sex ed is scare tactics intended to teach people to only fuck for procreation (the law there actually states that school districts/teachers can lie to students for sex ed) and doesn’t know that triple anal can tear asses and fucking three dudes a day for three weeks straight can cause (although indirectly) a painful bartholin cyst on her pussy lips and send her to the ER in an unfamiliar town 2000 miles from her physician where she is doing her scenes in the middle of the night to have it drained (costing her $10K in the process — which is most of what she would make fucking three dudes a day for three weeks straight in porno scenes).
@mharris
“(that happens all the time even outside of porn, ask Katie Morgan about smuggling drugs, getting arrested at the border and spending two years sentenced to being forcibly ass fucked by every male guard nightly in the federal prison where she served her time next time you see her — and she hadn’t ever even talked to anyone in porn at the time she was a drug smuggler). ”
I think something is wrong with you. I don’t think I’m the only one who thinks that either.
At least it wasn’t a plug for Kink or some talk of BDSM. I guess that’s an improvement. Keep working at it.
Very good point CPanzram. poor Katie Morgan we didn’t know all that she was a drug smuggler. WILD.
Yes, Katie was arrested at about age 20 smuggling (IIRC) marijuana and spent two years in the clink for it. At least it was the US clink, I don’t think the poor girl would have survived Mexican prison.
For the record I think it is wrong to imprison and torture people for drug “crimes”. Just legalize drugs, regulate the purity of the drugs, sell drugs in licensed liquor stores and tax drugs at 20% to cover the government expenses caused by drugs. I would legalize everything except maybe PCP (that particular drug sends people into a severe psychosis and makes them violent).
CPan, unfortunately what happens in an US prison is kept quiet with some prison systems being more torturous than others. I can unfortunately almost guarantee that a cute woman will be sexually assaulted multiple times a year by guards in most US prison systems with the judicial system considering it part of their punishment. Having known one of the attorneys that attempted to end repeated forced rape as part of the punishment for crimes in MI felonies and discussed the cases with her unfortunately it gets a lot worse than I have wrote on this site. Michigan has the harshest prison system in the country by far but don’t fool yourself into thinking rape isn’t part of the federal prison system or the other 49 state prison systems. It might not be quite as systematic in some other states but it is there.
Also, I have admitted that I am fucked up. However, I am not as fucked up as some people. I am not a rapist, a murderer, a fascist or a communist. I also actually give a damn about people even if my sometimes libertarian views on porn seem too permissive and less paternalistic than many would like.
Fake Sean, where can I get some of that “Grade A” female ass in Houston, Dallas or Austin next week (it’s just as addictive as crack)? I need to fuck a cute chick up the ass with my admittedly not so large dick and have heard those hot Dallas Cowboys cheerleaders won’t break into little pieces when a quarter ton of Michigan’s finest fucks them (unlike many of the Ohio chickies I fuck now — unfortunately fornication is a felony in MI so I go to Toledo twice a month to get my dick drained). I have to draw the line at rubbing dicks with other men, though — very little makes my dick shrivel up into its attached ball sack quicker than the thought of gay sex and IMO double anal is just an excuse for two men to fuck each other using the woman as a cover — sorry Fake Sean. Maybe some crack addicted gigolo will shove his dick and a dildo into your ass (at the same time) and then cumming down your throat with his shit covered dick for $50. He might also know where you can buy some more of that “Grade A” crack you like so much.
@joeschmoe
Informed choice is consent.
Who pays for your surgical repair solution?
Wage earners often have their pay spent in their head or on paper before its earned. As you point out most workers immediate goal is their next paycheck. That is one of the reasons the employer is responsible for providing a safe workplace.
Producing porn is a choice. Name one occupation where the stakeholders force the workers to provide their own safety measures. Testing is required to keep porn sets safe… so why aren’t producers paying for it?
Smoking is a personal choice, unless it’s affecting their job it has no relevance to workplace issues. When it comes to smoking pitchforks are still out. Workplace safety is why smokers can’t smoke at their desks or within x feet of building entrances. Smoke rooms went away with WC claims and astronomical group medical insurance premiums. Employers who didn’t enforce no smoking regulations got hit with hefty fines, and costly lawsuits. It’s legal and acceptable to discriminate against smokers individual rights & liberties to provide those liberties to non-smokers.
Perdue chose to produce and market chicken. It’s a dangerous job so they pay workers to attend employer provided step by step training on how to avoid injury and pay WC claims when workers ignore training. Now they’re on the hot seat for not allowing toilet breaks because workers were wearing diapers on the during an unrelated OSHA inspection. Workers chose to wear diapers but the employer is responsible for creating the working environment that necessitated the diapers. My crystal ball says purchasing diapers for workers won’t be an option and USA porn producers will still be avoiding paying costs they have no trouble passing on to workers.