Gender Wars at Dawn of a Brave New World
By Michael Payne
Isabel Robinson is an ordinary English woman, coming from a middle class, divorced, and has a teenage daughter, or perhaps I should say, had. 16 year old Megan was going through a phase of rebellion and hormonal rage, what every teenager experiences, it’s a part of life, or perhaps I should say, used to be. Here is where Isabel’s life turns into a nightmare: In summer of 2013, Megan was referred to an NHS (National Health Service) counselor for help in dealing with her teenage mood swings and her desire to fit in. After only 4 sessions, NHS counselor referred Megan to Tavistock clinic in North London, England’s only specialist centre for youngsters diagnosed with gender dysphoria. Here is the definition of gender dysphoria according to BBC:
“Gender dysphoria is when a person feels they belong to the wrong gender, or is confused about their gender.”
At Tavistock clinic, after only 2 visits, 16 year old Megan and psychiatrists announced with certainty that Megan has gender dysphoria, and must go through sex change treatment. Therefore, the government healthcare agency and their corporate pharmaceutical partner Tavistock took control of Megan’s life, and against her mother’s will, prepared a sex change plan for the child: Over the coming months she will be given blocker medication to stop the female hormones estrogen and progesterone. Her menstrual cycle will cease, she will bind her breasts to flatten her chest, and will change her title from Miss to Mr. She will dress and live as a boy for two years, this process is called RLE (Real Life Experience) after which she will be given the male hormone testosterone, which will cause her to grow beard, her incipient curves will be eradicated and she will acquire the body and voice of a man. Let me emphasize: This is a 16 year old child we are talking about, not old enough to get a tattoo without her parents’ permission, and yet, according to the government and their corporate pharmaceutical partner, she is old enough to make the most drastic decision of her life without even being able to comprehend and understand permanent consequences of such decision. Feeling powerless, angry and desperate, Isabel wrote an article which was published in England’s Daily Mail news paper. The following is an excerpt from Isabel Robinson’s article:
“For the 16 year old daughter I once knew as Megan has decreed she now wishes to be known as my son Morgan.
In place of the crisp blouses and skirts I had anticipated choosing with her for this transition to the sixth form, along with the girlie paraphernalia of makeup, handbags and shoes, there will be a new wardrobe of suits, brogues and ties.
It is hard to encompass or even imagine the scope of the emotions I’ll feel as I watch my little girl, my beloved only daughter, transformed into a teenage boy.
There will be shock, I know, at the physical alteration. Megan’s beautiful hair will be usurped by a short, sharp crop.
I shall have to learn to abandon the name I gave her in favor of the new one she has chosen. And there is grief.
The feminine pleasures we shared, the historical dramas we enjoyed watching together, will be relegated to memories.
But more disquieting and fundamental are my fears that Megan, acting on no more than a transient teenage whim, is being helped to change her sexual identity during the most formative and vulnerable years of her adolescent life.
At a time when she needed stability, support and constancy, she is facing a wholesale, radical, irrevocable change in her identity. How is she going to cope with having a new identity?
And my biggest fear is that Megan, an unhappy adolescent, will become a marginalized adult, who’ll ask: “Why didn’t you stop me?”
I am horrified, but utterly powerless to help. Megan, my lovely daughter, who longed to have children of her own, who even feared climbing trees for fear of scraping her knees, is determined to make this fundamental change.
Our whole family has been torn apart by this. I am receiving counseling for stress and my elderly parents, who are in their 80s, cannot believe a teenager has been “indulged “in such a dangerous manner. They are devastated to be losing the granddaughter they adore.
The other day, Megan announced to her grandmother: “You’ll have to call me your grandson in September.” Her grandmother answered back: “You’ll always be my granddaughter.”
If you’re a parent and are reading this, your hair should stand on end, the idea that the government has the power to take control of your child’s life against your will, interfere with the child’s biological makeup and create a new entity out of your child. There was a time when such things could only happen in horror and science fiction stories, psychopathic doctors, performing bizarre experiments on humans and animals in secret laboratories and abandoned dungeons, stories like “Frankenstein” and “The Island of Doctor Moreau”, but we live in the 21st century, a time of conflict, terror and conspiracy, a time when nightmares have become reality.
If you’re living in a place other than England and think you are safe, think again: Transgender agenda has gone global, and there is a systematic effort to promote this agenda and turn it into an acceptable social norm. In February 2014, the giant social network FaceBook added a third “custom” gender option for people’s profiles. In addition to “male” and “female”, FaceBook allows users choose among more than 50 additional options including “cisgender”, “pan gender” and “intersex”. At the time of writing this article, some of terms offered by FaceBook do not exist in any dictionary. Speaking of FaceBook, it’s worth mentioning social network’s controversial psychological study on users. FaceBook researchers, in collaboration with two American universities, manipulated the news feeds of more than 700,000 randomly selected users to study the impact of “emotional contagion”, or how emotional states are transferred among a group of people, from one person to another. The researchers said the evidence showed that emotional contagion occurs without direct interaction between people and “in the complete absence of nonverbal cues.” This research illustrates how controlling and manipulating information and news, in other words, covert propaganda, will shape personal emotions, and consequently, public opinions, and that takes us to the next phase of discussion. Take a look at the following news headlines, and notice the publication date of each of them:
– May 10, 2014: Austria’s “Bearded Lady” Conchita Wurst wins Eurovision Song Contest (Reuters)
– May 19, 2014: British Doctors Suggest Sex Change Drugs Must Be Offered to 9 Year Old Children (Telegraph)
– May 30, 2014: American Transgender Actress Laverne Cox (Netflix’s Sitcom Orange is the New Black) on the Cover of Time Magazine
Only an estimated 2 to 5% of the human population is transgender, a seemingly small number. In a world which is being torn apart by natural disasters, financial meltdowns and civil wars, why the corporate media sees the urgency to publish transgender headlines constantly, every few days? I don’t understand how come the well being of transgender minorities is more important than saving children who are forced to prostitution by international crime organizations around the world from Brazil to India and Thailand, or providing decent housing for homeless New Yorkers (whose numbers had increased 75%), or aiding Afghan men whose fingers were cut off by Taliban soldiers as punishment for voting in local elections. The corporate media either completely ignores or down plays these and many more crucial issues, and instead, churns out transgender headlines on a continuing basis. How many American people have Netflix subscription? Of all Netflix subscribers, how many watch “Orange is the New Black” starring Laverne Cox, and what Laverne Cox has achieved in life, other than being a transgender and appearing in an obscure sitcom, to deserve to be on the cover of Time magazine? The question is why suddenly there is such an attention to such a small percentage of the human population? I am of the opinion that where there’s smoke, there’s fire, this recent transgender propaganda, along with manufacturing and enforcing gender altering drugs and treatments, might be an organized attempt to break down traditional values, destroy the family community, and distort sexual behavior and gender identity. When a human being goes through an altering and castrating process and changes his/her sexual identity, that person will become desensitized and loses a part of what makes him/her a human, and in the eyes of the powers that be, this is not a bad thing, this is a good thing, desensitized livestock are easier to control.
The struggle to find identity and purpose in life is as old as humanity. There was a time when humans were channeling this struggle through creativity and innovation, works of art, poetry, painting, architecture, etc. Today, Frankenstein doctors write a prescription and recommend surgery, the quick junkie fix. Nowadays, people can change their sexual orientation and gender as easily as changing their makeup and hairstyle, and that is a disturbing trend.
I think of “Brave New World”, Aldous Huxley’s fictional novel which has shocking similarities to life in the 21st century. The story takes place in London, the year is 2540. The vast majority of the human population is unified under the World State, a global government. People are genetically designed to fit into one of five social classes, designed to fulfill predetermined positions within the social and economic strata of the World State. Members of the lower social classes are given special drugs and treatment, and are subjected to biological and chemical interference in order to cause arrested development in intelligence and physical growth. Lower class people make up the majority of human society, and since these people are deliberately limited in their cognitive and physical abilities, as well as the scope of their ambitions and the complexity of their emotions, therefore they’re easier to control. All children are educated via the “hypnopaedic process”, which provides each child with subconscious, subliminal messages to mould the child’s lifelong self-image and social outlook to that chosen by the leaders and their predetermined plans for producing future adult generations, as well as stopping the lower class citizens from wanting to be more than they were grown to be. Marriage, family union and parenthood are considered too obscene to be mentioned in casual conversation, and society has developed a completely different idea of relationship, lifestyle and sexual behavior. As you see, our world is shockingly similar to that of Huxley’s description in a fictional novel, written in the early years of the 20th century.
On June 21, 2014, Associated Press published an article titled “5 Things to Know About Transgender People” in which the author dictates the audience on how to behave themselves around transgender people, and suggests terms like “sex change” have become unfavorable, and the preferred term is “gender confirmation”. The article goes on to describe how President George W. Bush had a transgender friend while he was studying at Yale University:
“When he was president, George W. Bush hosted a White House reunion for his former Yale classmates, including a transgender woman who had lived as a man when Bush knew her. Another guest told reporters that the president grabbed the classmate’s hand and exclaimed fondly, “Now you’ve come back at yourself.”
Who would have thought? Bush was the man who bankrupted America by engaging in two simultaneous futile wars and took the country to the brink of collapse by implementing some of the worst financial deregulation policies in history, and yet, he had a transgender friend whom he met during his drunken, wasted years at Yale University. Perhaps this lifetime achievement must be mentioned in his eulogy once Mr. Bush leaves this mortal coil:
“He was a terrible leader, but had a transgender friend.”
Special thanks to my companion and partner Lisa for her contribution to this series of articles.
26 Responses
“They are devastated to be losing the granddaughter they adore.”
So the granddaughter should remain unhappy just to keep their family happy? Deep depression isn’t that bad, is it?
Kids will do things you don’t like. That’s part of being a parent. I love how this post pulls out the “think about the parents” instead of the “think about the children”. Kudos for switching things up.
Transgender people don’t stop being transgendered. The don’t become the opposite sex and then revert back during a mid-life crisis.
@CPanzram,
I don’t tend to get into a cyber match after writing an extensive article, I prefer to let the information I presented speak for itself, but I feel compelled to respond to your comment. You either didn’t pay attention to what you read, or you’re being biased. Let me ask you this: Do you actually believe that a 16 year old child is capable of comprehending and understanding a complicated issue like gender dysphoria and make an informed and vital decision which its irreversible consequences will impact her for the rest of her life? Do you think if she was exhibiting any serious signs of manly behavior, her mother, of all people, wouldn’t have noticed that? Furthermore, are you truly convinced that some clinic doctor can accurately and beyond the shadow of a doubt diagnose a 16 year old child with such a complex issue after only 4 visits? The powers that be including the governments, corporations and lobby organizations control and fund science, technology and study and use them as tools to manipulate and shape personal emotions and public opinions. That’s the main point of this article. You either didn’t understand this point or you deliberately ignored it.
My buddy sean is a transgender in Texas.
Pretty good article. My buddy Michael whiteacre wants to become
TG. Do you think with the new Obama care act he can get it done?
He likes putting things in his ass.
What I find most disturbing here is the government usurping the rights of parents. PARENTS should be involved in these decisions that their children are making. This kid can wait until he is an adult, and if he still feels the same way then fine, let him make that decision. But for the government to step in, and remove the parents from being responsible for the actions of their children is a dangerous slippery slope.
If I am a parent, and anybody is giving my children any kind of drugs or medications that will alter their body, I should have a say in that. These parents are not withholding life saving medical treatment.
When you give the government the right to take parental rights away, you open the door to taking away alot of other rights. Any doctor who gives a minor drugs for a purpose other than needed medical treatment, against the wishes of that childs parents, should loose their license.
@Mr. Payne
Personally, I believe in therapy with a choice being made towards sexual reassignment or even hormones once the individual becomes a legal adult, but your “agenda” concepts are BS so once one reads that the rest of the text flows like a wet fart after a Joey Silvera scene.
The suicide rates from transgendered folks is extremely high and higher in the UK than here. So, this is a situation where one is battling two issues. Transgendered children and suicide.
If a transgendered child would read an article like yours then I’m sure they wouldn’t feel accepted in society. For some reason I think the grandparents may be more upset burying their granddaughter instead of gaining a grandson. (Maybe not in places like Ireland and Russia. Or even Armenia) The words from the grandma in your article probably don’t help in instances such as this. Not feeling accepted is why they are killing themselves. If they are accepted then maybe they won’t need drugs at 9 to stop them from killing themselves when they hit 15. If you can’t change people you gotta change the situation until people change. That is, if you don’t want a bunch of transgendered carcasses.
People changing is what is happening here in America. (Hence the loved transgendered character on Orange is the New Black.) A transgendered child may feel more accepted after seeing a character that they like on a magazine cover.
And you call that an agenda?
Kinda heartless, isn’t it?
First we read about you complaining about gays. Now you are complaining about trannies afar.
Seems like you have more of an agenda than they do…
You’re from Armenia, am I correct? Their negative/skewed thoughts towards gays and HIV is highly-documented. Also, a lot of Armenians contract HIV from prostitutes outside of the country and bring it back home with them. As a pornographer, aren’t you contributing to the problem with a hooker agenda? Throw in your anti-gay stance and now your distaste for transgendered folk and it all fits together.
What you call an “agenda” is actually just people like you getting old and a new generation of people taking over and getting rid of your stupid ideas. You know, like a fear of a gay/transgendered agenda.
However, do not fear. I’m sure the words and advice of a pornographer will be held in high-regard. Remember, your audience is that of the adult entertainment industry for the most part. I’m sure they will read it and make positive change in the world we live in. 😉
What do you know about the Lactose-Intolerant Jew Tranny agenda? You do know that soy can grow breasts in males, right? Look at who owns some of the biggest soy milk companies as well as their shareholders…
I had actually heard about this before his article and the thing that really concerned me was the usurping of the parental rights here. When the person is a legal adult and has gone through considerable counseling I have zero problem with gender reassignment or whatever the PC term is but doing it with a 16 year old without regard for the parents (who should know the child much better) consent is problematic for me on many levels. It also seemingly was a very short decision process for the clinic involved. I am here because of the marvels of modern surgical techniques (had a tumor removed from my spinal cord in 2007, a very complicated micro surgical technique) but I think that in many cases just because we can tinker with what mother nature did doesn’t mean we should particularly when it is life altering as is this. I knid of liken it to giving a 16 year old a boob job but orders of magnitude more risky. I like to run opposing views on my site and though I am largely in agreement here it gives me pause to reconsider my position on things. Its well written and if it causes just one person to do a little research and more thinking on the topic then its a good thing no matter if they agree or disagree in the end. I have learned the most by reading things I dont agree with because they inspire mw to further consider my opinions….Take the death penalty for instance I have been back and forth on that one for years and I wont go into my thoughts on it here today they have evolved over the years, ditto abortion, race and other hot button topics that are all to easy to lump people into your are either for it or against it dogma when the issues are way too complex for the choices to be that simple.
@Mikesouth
Remember, you and I live in the US. The way things are handled here is different than over there. Check out Ireland’s Catholic church and their control over women.
America is a great country. We don’t have to deal with the bullshit a lot of others do. I’m all for keeping it that way.
For you and I living in the US to think of transgendered kids getting meds is absurd. We can agree on that.
With things like “acceptance” this can happen at the age of 18 elsewhere too and not just here in the west. I feel bad saying it should be limited to the age of 18 too.
Transgendered people have lost their youth because people don’t want them to change.
Remember when you were too young to buy beer with your friends?
Now compare that feeling to your gender.
Holy shit… That would have sucked. We could at least find something somehow on a Saturday night. 😉
Our issues of age didn’t really matter much, did they?
No. We just wanted to get drunk.
Now, there are those that will have zero doubt growing up. That’s why the psychiatric care is needed to determine that. In the east could we trust a parent to make the right choice? I dunno. Here in the west it is more likely. I really don’t see this situation happening here.
This shit is happening overseas because of the lack of acceptance. Touting the ideals of this post as being positive does not help at all. When you repeat you also promote even if it was inadvertent.
It is addressing a problem incorrectly and as a result the real issue is being overlooked.
Transgendered kids are killing themselves. They shouldn’t be doing that. I think we agree on that.
If they were accepted then they wouldn’t feel the need to change themselves at such a young age.
There is your problem. Fix that.
The “agenda” is these kids seeing others do it thanks to technology. They’re learning this from their peers. That’s a good thing.
I agree that this girl should only make this decision after much thought and psychiatric counseling. Certainly four sessions isn’t enough to work through the issues she must be facing. With proper counseling she might have chose not to attempt to change her gender. My understanding (admittedly it has been a few years since I read the article I am referencing) is that here in the US a candidate for gender change must have one year of weekly counseling and then live as their preferred gender for two more years before even thinking about starting medication to effect the change. If I understand correctly it is usually five years or more from beginning counseling to the operation. Gender change counseling is not begun until the age of 18 (the age of majority in most of the US) here.
This girl’s age is less concerning to me than the lack of psychiatric counseling to attempt to eradicate this desire before forging ahead with hormone treatment. I feel that most 16 year old women (and men as well) are capable of living as an adult if society would only allow it. I know I was pretty much living my own life at that age, I think I turned out OK although as with anyone else I made quite a few mistakes over the years.
It’s distressing that whatever issues caused the NHS referral it seems this mom was either in total denial or completely blindsided by the outcome.
This story concerns me as a parent wondering if the rebellion was due to undisclosed TG issues or if the TG issues are part of the rebellion.
For the sake of argument I’ll go with a child successfully hiding and living a lie to keep mom happy but still can’t get on board with NHS quick referral to Tavistock prior to spending time with the child and parent as mediators. Let’s say the kid’s rebellion and acting out is a byproduct of living a lie; how is hop skipping to fix that lie with surgery even with a two year RLE going to mend the relationship they stepped in to address?
It seems like NHS approach exacerbated the rebellion instead of paving the way for an involved family to remain/become supportive of their child by teaching the family to effectively handle conflict. RLE and surgery aren’t going to fix a kid acting out to the point of NHS intervention or un-teach learned coping behaviors they became proficient enough in to warrant NHS intervention. Rushing through this process in a way that has a rebellious kid telling grandma how it’s gonna be is the quickest way for granny to reject all that comes along as co-signed rebellion.
It seems like once TG became an issue all the known precipitating issues went away which just isn’t the case. We read the mother providing hair & wardrobe to facilitate the drug therapy and surgery NHS proposed but where is the help NHS intervention was meant to effect?
Instead of supporting a TG it seems like NHS is exacerbating poor coping skills that cause too many TG (and other) carcasses. They feel like their family doesn’t love or accept them, how is this process going to facilitate that or provide the anchor this mother appears to want to offer to a rebellious kid who’s life and relationships aren’t going to magically transform into utopia once rebellion now a byproduct of living a lie becomes a byproduct of living the truth.
None of this even approaches legal issues of parental responsibility and rights being usurped by NHS. Lots of kids have body image issues but NHS isn’t hop skipping kids to the (take your pick) specialty clinic as quick as they sent this kid to Tavistock and that to me spells out ugly issues.
@cpan
actually deleted personal experience from comment about growing up with a true TG. By sixth grade we all knew to call ‘Michael’ Michelle or face a recess/lunch ruckus on the blacktop with Donald, JJ and Michelle. Our town had many newcomers but those of us who started pre-k together did and still look out for each other because life just keeps revealing how important that is.
Michael’s graduation gift was a University Education in Sweden with a simultaneous Gender Reassignment process back when it was still very new in 1981. Even with JJ & Donald coming out in HS it was evident ‘Michelle’ was dealing with very different issues but never was Gay or TG an excuse to mistreat others despite the ignorance and disrespect they all faced on a daily basis.
As for carcasses before TG it was Gay and my HS had more than its share including Benny who one day instead climbing his tree to wave at our study hall decided to let us see him make his final statement to a disappointed bully of a father. The dramatic trauma didnt end there because his parents who were blamed for his death fought for weeks and even hired a lawyer to get the Catholic church to bury not only a suicide but a gay suicide in consecrated grounds.
A year later at graduation it was still a daily topic around dinner tables, including Michelle’s. As a mother im tearing up recalling his dad reveal what none of us ever knew, Michael had been suicidal for three years but never told even his closest confidants and his parents would rather have a living daughter then a dead son. We all thought witnessing Benny die was too much for his gentle heart, instead she later explained that it was a daily struggle and regrets that it wasn’t him we saw die that day as proof of yet another way he failed life.
Unlike the the pleas for understanding and acceptance I grew up with I do see an angry resentful agenda by many ‘activists’ that i can best equate with reformed smokers living in fear they will start again with the slightest temptation so without provocation they announce their issues with precipitating DEMANDS for accommodations with the expectation that current smokers will offend them.
ya know it just comes off like a nagging granny who thinks we cant see the walker she is using as she announces what a pain in the ass it is and then plops it on the foot of anyone who didn’t pause to acknowledge the woes of her pending hip replacement..which of course won’t negate the need for her toe stomping walker.
@CPanzram,
By posting this rant, you confirmed my suspicion that you are a biased, ignorant bigot. You went on and on and wasted so much space without answering the specific questions that I asked:
1. Do you think if this 16 year old child was exhibiting any serious signs of manly behavior, her mother, of all people, wouldn’t have noticed that?
2. Are you truly convinced that some clinic doctor can accurately and beyond the shadow of a doubt diagnose a 16 year old child with a complex issue like gender dysphoria after only 4 visits?
And then you resorted to insults and jibes, and brought up the “suicide among transgender” statistics. You wrote:
“This is a situation where one is battling two issues: Transgendered children and suicide.”
Let me ask you for the THIRD time: How a clinic doctor, in only 4 sessions, was able to accurately and beyond the shadow of a doubt prove this child was transgender? By bringing up the suicide statistics, it seems you’re implying, whether directly or indirectly, that the government must have the authority to take over a child’s life against her parents’ wishes, drug the child and interfere with the child’s biological makeup, otherwise the child may commit suicide: Give up your children and hand them over to us, or they will kill themselves. Thanks for the enlightenment, schmock ,we are living in a “brave new world” and a nanny state, after all. This shameful reasoning falls in line with the Patriot Act and other police state propaganda garbage: “Give up your freedom and allow the NSA lackeys to spy on you and cops to stop you in the street and frisk you without a court order and TSA goons to put their hands in your pants, if you don’t give it up and refuse to bend over, the boogey man will get you and the terrorists will win.” You’re not very bright, are you? But then again, the world is such a mess exactly because of people like you who swallow whatever trash that the corporate media feeds them without hesitation and thinking. And I’m sure transgender children will feel accepted in society when they see Laverne Cox (Cocks, interesting name for a transgender) on the cover of the Time magazine, because EVERYONE in America has Netflix subscription, and EVERYONE, including the children, watch the Mature rated obscure comedy “Orange is the New Black”. EYERYONE. Yeah, right.
As for the gay people, I have absolutely nothing against them. People who personally know me can confirm that. On the contrary, I believe many gay people are talented and successful individuals. You know who is my most favorite music band? Judas Priest. You know who is the band’s front man? Rob Halford, an openly gay man, he came out of the closet in 1998, long before the 21st century gay propaganda started. I’ve been a Priest fan since I was a teenager, and I watched the MTV interview in which Halford, for the first time, went on the record and said he’s been gay all of his life. You know what was my reaction? I thought whatever, that’s his personal and private life and has got nothing to do with his music. I was more interested to listen to his new album, and have remained a loyal Priest fan, and Rob Halford’s sexual orientation has never affected my view of him, as it should not. Last month I went to see X-Men: Days of the Future Past, directed by Bryan Singer, a gay man, starring Ian McKellen and Ellen Page, both of whom are gay. Did I sit through the movie, thinking about the sexual orientation of these talented people? No, I focused on the story and enjoyed the movie. I voted YES on Prop 8, because I believe everybody must have the equal right to marriage and family union, regardless of their race, gender, sexual orientation, religion, etc. However, at the same time, I am aware of the fact that HIV rate among the gay people is higher than the straight people which makes homosexuality a potentially dangerous lifestyle, and also the fact that upbringing, education and propaganda have powerful influence over people, mainly children and teenagers. Therefore, I’m against advocating and promoting the gay culture, and believe this practice must be kept personal and private. That’s the statement I made in “Over the Rainbow” article, and I will stand by that statement. If you don’t understand my position on this issue, then it’s your problem, not mine.
As to your other point, I was born in Armenia in 1970’s to an Armenian/Persian mother and a Russian father. At that time, Armenia was a part of the Soviet Union. I was raised in a harsh environment, under the constant threat of a brutal dictatorship. I joined a resistance group when I was in college, and was arrested, tortured and imprisoned for 9 months of which 3 months was spent in solitary confinement. Trust me, I know the importance and value of freedom more than you can ever imagine, because unlike you, it was never handed over to me. I fought and bled for it. I left my country in 1994, and spent 10 years travelling around the world until I was finally settled in America in 2004. I became a United States citizen because I believe in the traditions and values of America, and I swore to protect this country against all enemies, foreign and domestic, and I will stand by my oath until the end of my days. I decided to make porn movies because it was like an adventure to me, and I am a thrill seeker, I also enjoy writing about my experiences as a pornographer and my perception of the adult industry, it’s like a labor of love, but those have never been my only activities. I published a novel, launched a web site, and the social/political articles of which two have been posted on mikesouth.com have been originally written for my web site. I’m collecting all of my articles in a book that I’m planning to publish sometime next year. When the book comes out, I’ll make an announcement, buy it, read it, learn a little something. When I write a social/political article, in addition to posting it on my web site, I send it to all my friends and colleagues who operate web sites, people within the adult industry as well as social/political activists, those who you may call “conspiracy theorists”. I’m not subscribed to any social network site, I don’t do FaceBook, I don’t tweet, sending out my articles to my friends and colleagues is my way of spreading the information. I’m doing my part to contribute to the values that I believe in, freedom, equality and transparency, and these values are neither old nor new, they are ageless and immortal. So don’t think you fucking know me because you looked me up on the internet, you don’t. What do you do with your life besides “making comments” on this, that and the other web site? Judging from the frequency and the length of your comments, nothing much. Maybe it’s time for you to put down your iPad, get out of your bubble and gain some real life experience, although I doubt if you’ll ever do that. You sir, are a fool, and fools are not worth debating. Good luck and good riddance.
@Mr. Payne
Why are you feeling a need to defend your position on gays through the use of personal examples? Celebrities too. No one really cares. This sounds like one of those “my best friend is black” things. If Halford’s sexuality never bothered you then why did you even think to bring it up?
Think about that.
The Telegraph article you mentioned references the Daily Mail as a source. Think of the most sensationalist sites or newspapers here in the US. They’re just like the Daily Mail. Their headlines are often misleading.
The treatments are reversible and long-term effects may be tantamount to drugs already being prescribed. The government is not moving in to turn our children into gays or transgendered folk. Calling it an “agenda” of the transgendered folk doesn’t help transgendered folk or their families at all. It adds fuel to the fire.
In order to have the drugs one must have parental consent as well as other requirements such as having the gender identity documented for 4 years. For the child to accept treatment without parental consent they have to be 16. Too young? I don’t know. I’m not transgendered. However, if the child realizes that they aren’t transgendered for some reason the medication can be stopped and puberty will resume.
What is better?
A child changing their biological gender at 16 and then changing back or a child not changing their gender until 18 and then being forced to live a life in a body with gender characteristics opposite of what they feel?
16 year-olds can drive, get a job, take birth control, and drop out of school all on their own. God forbid they choose a gender without mommy and daddy approving.
You are correct. There is a problem here. Your approach to it is part of it.
Mharris said:
“This girl’s age is less concerning to me than the lack of psychiatric counseling to attempt to eradicate this desire before forging ahead with hormone treatment.”
Picture being a child and feeling something and people are doing their best to say “No you don’t. You shouldn’t feel that way. It is wrong”.
People still feel being transgendered is something one can and/should eradicate.
@cpan
“People still feel being transgendered is something one can and/should eradicate.”
So are you going to attack every article, author and publication that notices this agenda? Will you continue to use ‘deny, deflect, distort and if that doesn’t work defame’ activism with some foolish misguided hope that it will endear folks to your cause?
If this story were about NHS choosing after 4 visits (less than the span of an afternoon) with a child and decided to place them in alternate living arrangements than a family providing them with material if not emotional support it likely would have raised the same issues of usurped parental authority and government overreach.
It isn’t okay for the government to overreach even if they are supporting something near and dear to your heart. The fact that you’ve refused direct responses to any of the questions proffered makes the point of the ‘agenda’
RE: reversible drugs, parental consent, four year documented history. This parent consent was essentially coerced by government that could and would remove the child if they didn’t agree and where is the four year documentation? It didn’t come from the parent, and four visits to an overworked and understaffed agency surely doesn’t leave ample time to gather documentation.
“No you don’t, you shouldn’t feel that way. It is wrong.” Is exactly what you are saying to white heterosexuals with your “I have a black friend” comments to address their comments.
@lurking
It really isn’t that near and dear to my heart. I’m not transgendered. 😉
4 visits wasn’t enough. I believe in years of therapy. I said that a while back in the first sentence of a post. Personally, I believe in the age of 18. I’m not transgendered so my opinion on age means NOTHING.
This is happening universally in all cases? Are all 16 year olds who are transgendered and seek to change themselves given just 4 visits?
No. No they are not. Therefore, the need for sensationalism and comparing it to the Patriot Act is kinda lame. What you were given in this instance was an idiot doctor and parents in denial. Should we just deny all of them due to this? What’s that do aside from using a bad fish to spoil an opportunity for others? You know, like removing guns because some fools don’t know how to use them.
If someone uses a gas-operated assault rifle for nefarious purposes and people die should we stop all people from having the ability to use them?
Hell no.
Should all kids suffer because of a poor doctor?
What you do is fire the doc and have the family sue if they can prove damage was done.
Mr. Payne’s claims that doctors are like Frankenstein working in dungeons doing bizarre experiments is where the bullshit lies. These drugs are not bizarre experiments anymore than Ortho Tri-Cyclen is.
He’s not complaining about government-funded forced-menstruation, is he? (Not yet.) Government assistance covers birth control here.
This is the most bigoted view of this news story I’ve read yet and I read it here.
I’m still laughing over the idea of tranny propaganda. I’ve know learned that Payne isn’t being satirical. It does make it funnier.
Mr Payne’s examples contain a lot of misinformation. Take for instance the Facebook example. I have never been able to bring up the list. I’ve read the list of identities, but it isn’t available to me. That’s because only certain people get the options or certain areas. Facebook is doing it as a test to see if people actually pick the choices in order to cater to their users better. (Probably data to sell too.) Sensationalism looks better though I guess because the real story is kinda boring.
When figuring out gender identity who is the better person to ask? The kid or their parents?
@cpan
Didn’t suggest that you had to be TG to embrace the issue as near & dear…
Your first comment raising depression…which may very well be a part of the rebellions wasn’t lost or ignored by other commenters. In fact 4 visits barely scratches the surface for run of the mill depression w/o added complications of teen angst, rebellion and sweeten the pot with gender issues.
Doesn’t matter if it is happening universally…one family losing their parental rights is too fucking many!
Comparison to governmental free reign with the patriot act are absolutely related and relevant to this situation where the mother was either in total denial or blindsided.
Sensationalism is raising depression and suicide vs addressing the rebellion already on the table and left aside once TG entered the picture.
How the fuck do YOU know the parents were in denial? Why would you automatically assume parent was in denial vs blindsided or better yet take a neutral position in the absence of anything to affirm a four year history IG teacher, mentor, coach or even peer reports…none of which has been mentioned in connection with this situation.
That idiot doctor is working on behalf of the government who can & will exercise powers his opinion grants them cart Blanche to pursue…such as rushing to begin gender reassignment prior to mapping out a plan to address the rebellion or other issues such as undisclosed, undocumented gender issues. They can and do remove children from the home and send the parents a bill for services rendered until age 18 if parent is two bucks above poverty level.
Should kids, parents and family suffer because the government contracted with a piss poor doctor to render judgements? Sue the doc? What fucking planet are you on? UK and US have sovereign immunity which includes contracted professionals used to render opinions the government acts on in “good faith” so there is no suing which makes the idea that they are there to save the day much worse when potential damage is this plain!
Mr Payne’s assertion that the docs acting in concert with the government aren’t to far off the mark if you ask your black friends whose parents/grandparents were unknowingly infected with syphilis to determine what happens with untreated disease. Perhaps you’re unaware of military experiments with hallucinogenics?
Can’t speak for Payne…do speak for myself…forced menstruation would be as abhorrent as any other forced medical procedure.
Bias and bigotry aren’t a one way street…your bias towards ignored or marginalized TG is just as strong on the other side.
Many LBGT groups limit membership and options to those known to be LBGT…why is it an issue that other groups also choose exclusivity?
This story is anything but boring or two sided…government authority to intervene in a family with a rebellious teen, paid contracted specialty providers who may/may not be pushing their product, gender issues, coercive parental consent and much more.
When figuring out gender identity the kid would be the best source, however in this case it would be nice if there had been an inkling prior to visiting the counselor/Tavistock. I’m not taking sides here, for all I know the mother could be speaking in denial but acting on subconscious knowledge vs coercive pressure to facilitate the RLE.
@lurking
No, but saying someone is too young at 16 to decide gender is kinda foolish unless one is transgendered themselves. It goes like this:
“Mom, I’m transgendered.”
“Honey, no you are not.”
How would mom know? I think the daughter is a more reliable source since the mom isn’t living in the daughter’s body.
As for the denial:
“You’ll always be my granddaughter.”
That doesn’t sound like someone who stands behind the transgendered daughter, now does it? The grandmother is refusing to accept it.
Comparing what is happening in London with transgendered kids is no where close to the Tuskegee experiment. That trivializes the victims’ experiences.
How is this really all that different from doctors allowing 16 year olds to take birth control when the parents don’t want it? One stops puberty and the other makes changes to the womb and allows a period. Kills potential life too. What if a parent doesn’t want their daughter having sex at 16 or want the government giving them medicine to hinder certain issues that could arise? What about at age 14? They only have to go to one visit and no therapy at all.
I guess pumping people full of hormones is only good if you agree with the reason.
I’ve already said only 4 visits is wrong, but preventing something because of one case would be foolish. 1 death is too many when it comes to guns. Banning guns won’t help.
I totally get what you are saying. I don’t agree that this is a form of malicious government turning people into ladyboys and I don’t view this as a gender war. That’s stretching it Moronica Foster style.
@cpan
Primary point I tried making was that Payne is just as entitled to his bias as you are to yours. Trying to nit-pick the ideas you have about marginalized gender dysphoric kids in no way invalidates the agenda Payne presented.
“Comparing what is happening in London with transgendered kids is no where close to the Tuskegee experiment. That trivializes the victims’ experiences.”
Context is everything, and in no way was this offered as a comparison. It was offered to refute your claim that “doctors are like Frankenstein working in dungeons doing bizarre experiments is where the bullshit lies.” Further it proves there is basis to self-interested docs having garnered Government blessing and/or participated Government initiated human experiments. I offered two US examples yet there are hundreds worldwide.
“I totally get what you are saying. I don’t agree that this is a form of malicious government turning people into ladyboys and I don’t view this as a gender war. That’s stretching it Moronica Foster style.”
Seriously doubt you get I’m saying: despite the good that can come from Governments offering interventions and medical services there must be checks and balances to the process. This case clearly shows a failure to balance parental rights with what may be a teen whim chosen in an ‘effort to fit in.” Your outright denial that this case could be a power of suggestion by a misguided if not malicious therapist is just as dangerous as parents who deny their child’s obvious gender dysphoria. To deny that a therapist merely asking standard questions could suggest a ‘fit in option’ to a rebellious teen struggling to fit in and seeing it as a possible niche is as foolish and shortsighted as assuming kids at 16 aren’t able to genuinely discern gender dysphoria.
For someone bothered by Payne’s celebrity references your use of “Moronica Foster” reference comes across as odd.
@Lurking
It is sensationalism. These are not “sex change” drugs. Payne is entitled to feel whatever he wants, but when his views are based on skewed info then what purpose do the views serve other than providing misinformation?
Go and read the article from the Daily Mail. Payne left stuff out. The daughter said she hid this from her mom for years in order to save her family strife because she knew they wouldn’t understand. The parents are upset that their view of their daughter and the feminism the mother shared is now lost. Rightfully so too. However, shit happens in life. That happens when you have a kid. You can’t plan for it.
You don’t know that the daughter is being rebellious. I was rebellious as a kid. I smoked, drank, did drugs, had weird hair, wore goofy clothes, and didn’t do what my parents told me to do.
When one is rebellious they don’t think, “I’m going to be the opposite gender. That will show them”. People usually think that when they feel as though they are in fact the opposite gender.
Part of rebelling does not consist of something that will leave you open to extreme ridicule among your peers. That’s counterproductive.
It is something more than rebellion and I honestly feel you are over-simplifying the situation by stating they were rebellious. Being transgendered is in fact something that will make you rebel.
It is not a symptom, but rather a cause for rebellion.
You are assuming the daughter wasn’t level-headed. While I think 4 visits to a doc is too short the girl could have proved beyond a reasonable doubt that this is what she wanted. I think even if she was able to do so more visits should happen, but that is not my area of expertise.
Ask yourself this.
What number of visits would the daughter need with the doctor for the parents to approve of the decision the daughter made with the doctor?
I really don’t see the parents saying “Well, she’s had 4 visits once a week for 6 months. She must really be a boy.”
I am going to assume that they would always be against the decision considering granny claimed she wouldn’t acknowledge it. 😉
Just claiming you are transgendered isn’t enough to call it rebellious behavior in this situation.
We don’t even know what the doctor’s assessment was considering we haven’t read it. We just made ourselves doctors and said it wasn’t enough. 😉
This law happened because someone viewed the situation logically. No one is doing experiments on children. These drugs have been used in other instances with no harm. This is not an experiment. This instance isn’t even a sex change. This is no where close to Tuskegee. When I said doctors aren’t doing experiments I was referring to this case.
HPV vaccinations. Those are given to kids too. A 16 year old can get those without parents consent.
This just stops puberty. It doesn’t have anything to do with them even having sex like an HPV vaccination does.
These drugs do not change gender. These drugs are reversible. RLE is a trial done to ensure that the person actually wants to be transgendered. Once that is confirmed then the hormone replacements are given. Giving the hormone replacements during RLE would rule out a need for RLE. If during RLE the daughter doesn’t want to be a male then it can stop and she’ll go back to be a female.
Turning 18 and having your body already form isn’t reversible. As a result a lot of transgendered people go through extreme reconstructive surgeries to undo what puberty did. It really never works. Their suicide rates are high.
Payne likes to bring up Laverne Cox, but Laverne Cox attempted suicide at age 11. Ask any psychologist and they’ll tell you that an 11 year old making honest attempts at suicide is extremely abnormal. That shouldn’t be happening. Something extreme was happening in her life that she couldn’t deal with. He is a she now and she is doing extremely well.
What if risks of suicide can be lessened and transgendered people can live life in a body that is more suited for them?
It is just like the girl that wants to have sex at 16 without risk of getting pregnant against the parents wishes.
An instance of life being unable to form because of ovulation being blocked isn’t reversible.
One can undo this. It doesn’t change gender.
“Mom, I am a boy.”
“Honey, you can be whatever you want to be when you turn 18.”
Kids are killing themselves because of that.
Payne’s celebrity references were foolish. He claimed when he saw a gay person on the big screen he didn’t walk out. Do racist rednecks turn off the Super Bowl when a black guy appears on TV? No.
For Payne to think that an example showing that he had nothing against gays consisted of him being fine with seeing them in a movie is HORRIBLE. Someone who is OK with gays wouldn’t even think to use that as an example.
“Rob Halford was gay and I love Judas Priest”
Yeah, why wouldn’t a metal fan love Priest?
(I can understand not liking everything after Defenders minus Painkiller)
There is a little bit of psychology there. Why would someone make that statement?
“I loved these actors and these musicians even though they are gay.” That’s what he said in a nutshell.
He even commented on how he didn’t walk out as that being an instance that would even occur in someones mind.
I don’t know if that is laughable or sad.
Since when was Moronica “Camming for Christ” Foster a celebrity?
Are we discussing your issues with Payne’s article? Are you singing to the choir about this girl? Your rants are all over the place and very difficult to respond to.
Payne took what he want and left the rest just as you are doing. Before this got into such a detailed debate I read the source articles as well checked out BBC and a few others. Please refer back to my early comments which included the child possibly hiding gender issues to keep mom happy.
From the start I have focused on the undisclosed, undocumented gender issues without questioning their validity. We both agree four visits were not enough, is my focus on rebellion your next avenue of attack? This isn’t a debate about the validity of her gender issues, it is about how the government handled a behavior intervention. Are you trying to suggest that equal access medical laws to treat gender issues take precedence over concurrent behavioral issues? That’s how it seems.
Relying on consistent reports I’m standing by the ‘child was rebellious to the point of required intervention’ and see it as a byproduct of the poor communication/coping skills vs a direct byproduct of the undisclosed gender issues. The fact that there are issues that caused this child to act out inappropriately in addition to causes that prevented this child from disclosing gender dysphoria needed to be addressed long before the referral to Tavistock. In fact by not addressing these issues distinctly there is the real possibility this child will blame gender dysphoria for the social issues precipitating government intervention rather than embrace and empower herself with effective coping skills to ease her RLE and forward.
Obviously I don’t think she was levelheaded, nor do I see this as a cause or prerequisite to gender issues that I consider distinctly separate. As to how many visits to the doc it would take I haven’t a clue. Perhaps the first visit was sufficient to spot the gender issues but to make a diagnosis and act upon it as the primary diagnosis within four visits is certainly against medical protocols, which is where the government intervention fell through. Keep in mind this is a case where someone other than the mother called Social Services for a behavioral intervention vs a teen who sought help for gender issues.
Because the child nor family sought the treatment offered many can & will see gender reassignment as a government offer to cure teen behavioral issues. Make no mistake about it; the government offered this girl gender reassignment support in the alternative to providing her/family behavioral therapy. Had the government offered concurrent supplemental child/family behavioral therapy with Tavistock this wouldn’t be the issue it is for me. While the hormones can be reversible, do you think her behavioral issues are just as reversible without treatment?
Laverne Cox is an example of surviving the self-loathing all too common with gender issues. That deep seated despair doesn’t magically go away which is borne out with too many TG post-surgical suicides. This is my greatest concern with cases like this where the government intents are at odds with their actions.
“Since when was Moronica “Camming for Christ” Foster a celebrity?”
Didn’t say she was, said your use of this reference was ‘odd’ given the issues you presented about his celebrity references. The similarity is that you both used named references to illustrate a point you were making. Some might say there’s some psychology behind the defensive posture in restating your objections to his celebrity references while adding a kicker to the repeat use of a derogatory named reference.
@lurking
Discussing Payne’s post, comments, and the issue of the girl.
How do you come to the conclusion she wasn’t levelheaded?
Is there info I’m missing or are you just assuming?
What are her behavior issues that are negative? Wanting to be transgendered isn’t a negative behavior issue.
I wasn’t using Monica as a way to make it sound like I was OK with someone. Now, if I would have said, “I love black people! I read Monica’s site” then my comment could be compared to Payne’s.
And once again, while we both think 4 visits was too little are we qualified to make that claim?
@Cpan
Payne’s post is using this case as an example of the government going too far…I agree with that because protocol was not followed. I also think the counselor and Tavistock placed the undisclosed gender dysphoria ahead of the primary issues that prompted their involvement. While I’m not prepared to hang my hat on NHS/Tavistock an example of a LGBT agenda the potential for abuse in these situations is too high for comfort.
Where I got my info…now we get to the LGBT agenda to ferociously quash spoken and/or published opinion pieces critical or non-supportive of LGBT lifestyle and issues to the point of having the following three media source articles removed, BBC & Telegraph May 2014 & the Daily Mail article sourced above. So I’m unable to give you direct quotes on which I base my assertion that she was not level headed beyond the fact that this intervention began with a referral for behavioral issues.
Now what am I missing…what exactly are you basing your assertion that she was level headed and had no issues beyond undisclosed gender dysphoria? BTW assigning depression in your first comment contradicts the level headed stance as does the depth of relating suicidal ideations where none have been directly sourced.
Again you missed the point about using a ‘known aka celebrity’ name as context after criticizing Payne for doing the same. To his credit he didn’t smear their names in efforts to show his derision to the referenced events.
“And once again, while we both think 4 visits was too little are we qualified to make that claim?”
As a mother of two post-adolescent children with over ten years of teaching and coaching over 2000 children ages 6-16 YES I feel qualified to make this statement. As someone who actually researches policy for situations that irk me, again the answer is emphatically YES! Are you somehow qualified to say otherwise? Did you miss “Perhaps the first visit was sufficient to spot the gender issues but to make a diagnosis and act upon it as the primary diagnosis within four visits is certainly against medical protocols, which is where the government intervention fell through.” Do you expect different responses to the same questions?
Instead of ripping you a virtual asshole with all the distorted or misinformation you have presented and I’ve referenced for arguments sake, here is the link to NHS gender dysphoria Diagnosis and treatment.
http://www.nhsdirect.wales.nhs.uk/encyclopaedia/g/article/genderdysphoria/
please notice under Teenagers & Adults:
“Without appropriate help and support, some people may try to suppress their feelings and attempt to live the life of their biological sex. Ultimately, however, most people are unable to keep this up.
Having or suppressing these feelings is often very difficult to deal with and, as a result, many transsexuals and people with gender dysphoria experience depression, self-harm or suicidal thoughts.”
(hence my early comments about the rebellion that prompted NHS involvement as a byproduct of living a lie.) Depression, self-harm and suicidal thoughts are listed as distinctly separate medical issues to be addressed. Rather than rely solely on common sense I actually checked (with a doc currently practicing in the UK) to see if NHS offered crisis intervention for gender dysphoria whose response was ‘We don’t consider gender dysphoria to be a medical crisis. We often refer patients with concurrent mental health or behavioral issues for crisis intervention.”
From your first comments to me your stance that this girl was a good candidate for gender dysphoria treatment has been singing to the choir, despite my stance that she wasn’t level headed. I maintain concerns that without proper pre-assessment and prior treatment for other mental/behavioral issues referrals to Tavistock are premature.
Lastly: Despite acknowledging errors handling this case are you absolutely unwilling/unable to see concerns many have that NHS has the ability to mistakenly offer gender dysphoria treatment to a teenager whose ‘undisclosed’ gender issues were not disclosed because they never existed….until a very serious mental illness has a kid latching onto a standard assessment question about gender issues as ‘something they haven’t tried..yet” to fit in?
@lurking
I understand Payne saying that as he fills it with sensationalism based on misinformation. I think it is an extremely poor example of government going too far.
Because you are a mother and coached children you know of transgendered issues and how to properly diagnose them to say a medical doctor with degrees was incorrect without reading his conclusions? You’re an amazing individual.
Having suicidal thoughts is not rebellion. It is one feeling very little self-worth to the point they don’t want to live. That’s not rebellion. Just because someone is a straight-A student doesn’t mean they aren’t suicidal. Just because someone has a good relationship with the parents doesn’t mean they aren’t suicidal. A lot of times people won’t tell others or show signs. A lot don’t cut themselves.
Governments already do a lot.
Not providing this could cause more harm. If parents were always correct given instances such as this then I could agree with what you are saying. They rarely are. Very few parents embrace the fact that their boy wants to be a girl. The kid then suffers. That’s awesome, isn’t? Fuck the gov.
We are going to disagree on it. I view this up there with everything else a child can do at 16 without the consent of the parents. Transgendered kids is more taboo though because a dad can find it hard to live vicariously through his son that wants to be a woman. Most naturally object even if it is best for the kid.
@cpan
So you’re okay given the information about THIS case; that the government decided based on four visits (intended to address rebellion) as sufficient to diagnose and initiate treatment for formerly undisclosed gender dysphoria. Perhaps you might have convinced me or others of this by focusing on the ways undisclosed gender dysphoria is linked to rebellious behavior vs depression & suicide.
Were you asking if I’m qualified to say four sessions with a teen isn’t enough to take the actions taken or were you asking for qualifications to diagnose formerly undisclosed transgender? “And once again, while we both think 4 visits was too little are we qualified to make that claim?” your response to my qualification to know and understand teens indicates dissatisfaction with my response. Would you take the same stance if this were a case where a rebellion referral led to teenager being placed into a long/life term drug treatment program for previously undisclosed drug use? Are you suggesting that beyond issues related to gender dysphoria that transsexual children and teens are different than the 2000+ I have experience with?
Please tell me where THIS case ever mentions suicide, depression or self-harm beyond your ideas.
Very few parents want to own lots of things their children embrace and choose to pursue…removing gender dysphoria this case highlights the fact that the government can and will usurp parental rights while still enforcing parental liability without due process based on little more than a child’s say so.
Here’s my problem with your assumption that THIS child required what amounts to crisis intervening gender dysphoria treatment & was being harmed w/o that treatment…the child chose not disclose to school counselors prior to this event where the same help would have been pursued with the added benefit of child/family counseling to address overwhelming gender issues including communication fears and possibly unrelated rebellion. Even if the child opted to avoid parental disapproval there are well publicized avenues of informational safe places for teens to address gender issues which NHS would have referenced if there had been a relevant foundation beyond those four visits.
It was clear from the start that we would disagree, that you are unable to see past the gender dysphoria treatment offered in this case and my assertion that it doesn’t matter if it was gender, drugs or any other issue.. My experience with teens is the first visit is taken up with initial intake process and most kids rebelling against parental authority aren’t quick to open up & trust other authority figures so it seems unlikely the remaining three sessions were primarily about how gender dysphoria was affecting this kids life. My take is on visit four when the kid finally took the risk of disclosure; the counselor decided gender dysphoria was outside their treatment expertise making the referral to Tavistock essentially clearing a case file. This method gives a kid risking disclosure mixed messages of a fairy godmother government and no need for therapy to address the rebellion prompting NHS crisis intervention. Perhaps you’re okay with trained professionals sending the message that transgender causes rebellion the way hiding the truth causes suicide, self-harm & depression?
If we were talking about a child who sought this treatment vs government intervention I’d be much more in synch with your views. Would you have dispersed with the distort, deflect and defame if you knew about the referrals to gender counselors made to several of the 2000+ kids I’ve had the pleasure to work with?
Finally, while you’re able to see the sensationalism in Payne’s article, everyone is able to see the attachment you have to the subject matter as well as your sensational use of related mental health issues. My neighbors have enjoyed this debate and paid up with a case of superior wine for losing the bet that you’d see logic over emotion. Tyvm and apologies to those who feel taken in with the unknown motivator to my participation in this drawn out debate 🙂
@lurking
Can you show me other cases where it happened in 4 visits?
We still don’t know what the doctors notes are and we never will. As a result, you are making assumptions based on little data. Four seems short for me as well, but we are in no way experts and being around kids doesn’t make one an expert at all on transgendered issues unless you were working as a psychologist or MD with transgendered kids.
You are assuming that the doctor wasn’t able to verify info from a kid that was hiding it from all. We have no idea of the discussion between the two. What if the 16 year old was able to show years of this behavior through online accounts on their phone including pictures that no one else knew about?
What if they have photos dating back to when they were 10 of them dressed as a boy? What about a long history of posting on transgendered forums online? What about a secret facebook account that shows dates going way back?
You simply don’t know and as a result are calling the system a sham, infringing on rights, and calling the doctor a hack.
I’m giving the kid the benefit of the doubt. It is a possibility. Provide evidence that the kid wasn’t transgendered and I’ll agree with you.
If four visits was the standard number for all cases then I would agree with you.
This case doesn’t mention suicide because we don’t know what the doctor’s notes say. I’m referring to all of the other cases out there because a high percentage will considering the high rate of cases for the transgendered. That’s documented. Look it up. That is one thing we can see.
Sensationalism due to one case?
My attachment to this post is the inferred “agenda”. That concept is damaging and somewhat just holds us back as a people. If it wasn’t for that line of thinking then government intervention wouldn’t be needed.
The furtherance to the acceptance of all types is only considered an “agenda” when you are against the types in question. Would one call womens rights “female propaganda”? Well, only if you were against it in some form.
I understand your line of thinking against government intervention and I truly can say until it happens to me personally what opinion as to right or wrong can I have? I do not fully know the people in question or their situation. I’m not a doctor either. Now, if the girl didn’t open up from the start and in the last 30 minutes of the last session stated that they were transgendered… Well, yeah. That wouldn’t be right.
I agree with a lot of what you say as I’ve said before. We agree on a lot more than you think. Just because I don’t agree with you or Payne on this doesn’t mean I can’t on other issues. I think you have a lot of good stuff to say and Payne’s post today was an entertaining read.
@Cpan
Not sure why you feel the need to distort what’s presented to you but glad it won me a case of very expensive wine. Below is the last I’ll say to you on this issue.
“Can you show me other cases where it happened in 4 visits?”
It wouldn’t matter if I did, your mind about this case would still be made up.
“We still don’t know what the doctors notes are and we never will. As a result, you are making assumptions based on little data.”
As are you.
“Four seems short for me as well, but we are in no way experts and being around kids doesn’t make one an expert at all on transgendered issues unless you were working as a psychologist or MD with transgendered kids.”
What I’m assuming is that you’re unaware of how your misguided efforts to protect is marginalizing instead. That in your world my 20+ years child development training as well as 15+ policy development for mandated reporter (teacher/coaches) and working with hundreds of PhD/MD is somehow invalidated because of your LGBT goals.
“You are assuming that the doctor wasn’t able to verify info from a kid that was hiding it from all.”
Am I? Aren’t you assuming that there was something to verify?
“We have no idea of the discussion between the two. What if the 16 year old was able to show years of this behavior through online accounts on their phone including pictures that no one else knew about?”
“What if they have photos dating back to when they were 10 of them dressed as a boy? What about a long history of posting on transgendered forums online? What about a secret facebook account that shows dates going way back?”
Wow that’s a lot of ‘what if’ assumptions you’ve just offered.
“You simply don’t know and as a result are calling the system a sham, infringing on rights, and calling the doctor a hack.”
Really now, if this your take it’s easy to see that were are never going to be dinner buddies…truly I said this case didn’t follow protocol, there is the potential for abuse that would infringe on parental rights and IIRC YOU are the one who initially took issue with the doc.
“I’m giving the kid the benefit of the doubt. It is a possibility. Provide evidence that the kid wasn’t transgendered and I’ll agree with you.”
Did you miss my first comment siding with the kid? The ends don’t justify the means. That simple fact seems lost on you.
“If four visits was the standard number for all cases then I would agree with you.”
So because they don’t always skirt protocol you’re okay they did it this time?
“This case doesn’t mention suicide because we don’t know what the doctor’s notes say. I’m referring to all of the other cases out there because a high percentage will considering the high rate of cases for the transgendered. That’s documented. Look it up. That is one thing we can see.”
Perhaps it’s time for you to look into all the ways gender dysphoric kids are just like other kids trying to assert their independence, sense of self (outside gender) and all kinds of other general child development stuff along with the usual requirements/process to merit government intervention. It seems you are forgetting this was a government crisis intervention.
“Sensationalism due to one case?”
Would you feel better if government abandoning their policy were the norm and not sensational?
“My attachment to this post is the inferred “agenda”. That concept is damaging and somewhat just holds us back as a people. If it wasn’t for that line of thinking then government intervention wouldn’t be needed.”
While you’ve done little to negate the agenda presented in the original article, you’ve done much to validate it.
“The furtherance to the acceptance of all types is only considered an “agenda” when you are against the types in question. Would one call womens rights “female propaganda”? Well, only if you were against it in some form.”
Recognizing something an agenda isn’t always about quashing, negating or minimizing its worth. The LGBT agenda of quashing critical/non-supportive articles in media is a verifiable fact as is article quashing by political groups and many other orgs.
“I understand your line of thinking against government intervention and I truly can say until it happens to me personally what opinion as to right or wrong can I have?”
So as long as LBGT as a ‘people’ aren’t marginalized you’re okay with non-LGBT being marginalized…no I don’t think you do understand my position that government policy like this exists to avoid marginalizing ANYONE by giving no side preference.
“I do not fully know the people in question or their situation. I’m not a doctor either. Now, if the girl didn’t open up from the start and in the last 30 minutes of the last session stated that they were transgendered… Well, yeah. That wouldn’t be right.”
Since we don’t know…how fair is it for you to automatically assume the mother is a liar about how this case was handled…that her concerns are irrelevant and somehow negated because her kid is getting needed treatment?
“I agree with a lot of what you say as I’ve said before. We agree on a lot more than you think. Just because I don’t agree with you or Payne on this doesn’t mean I can’t on other issues. I think you have a lot of good stuff to say and Payne’s post today was an entertaining read.”
Agree or not with his subject matter Payne is able to convey clear detailed articles that makes them worth reading.