A Performer Bill of Rights

One of the companies that shoots niche content has released what it calls a “performer bill of rights”  I copied it below (with permission of course)

While it isn’t a “Bill of Rights” it is a good example of how companies should conduct business with talent and in this case its this companies employment contract.  Thing is these practices could be written as a Performers Bill of Rights and it would be a good thing.  many websites, including Buzzfeed have been paying it lip service but really lip service is all it is.

For something like this to actually happen would require APAC to do more than just the usual hashtag activism, they would have to write this as a “performer Bill of Rights and then get behind it.

As it is it’s a lot like The FSC…it sounds like it might be good but in reality it’s just a lot of BS.  In order to be good it would have to have TEETH, meaning that violating it would cause at the very least, monetary damages.  APAC SHOULD get on this, write it up, endorse it and then take it and push Cal-OSHA into adopting it instead of the agenda being pushed by AHF.  Of course that means someone has to actually get off of his her ass….It would also require money, though not much.  If Chanel Preston wants to make a mark for APAC here is her chance.

It won’t likely happen, because

1. APAC is a puppet of the FSC and leaving condom use entirely at the discretion of performers is NOT going to be tolerated by the current iteration of The FSC.  The FSC has made it very clear that they only support that call being made by the producers/manufacturers.

2. Since APAC is a puppet of the FSC then the money would likely have to come from The FSC coffers, and THAT would mean a big deficit, considering that well over HALF of all the money donated to The FSC has been used to pay Diane Dukes salary, and that does NOT include her expenses like travel and whatnot.  the thing is that something like this Could be the thing that The FSC needs to get performers active in the organization.  In the past the FSC thought performers should pay to be members just because they said so, they did nothing for performers, performers knew it and support for The FSC from performers was dismal, as it should have been…Which leads to the next point.

3, AVN isn’t going to get behind it because they are not advocates for performers any more than The FSC is.  and XBiz isn’t going to do it because they are essentially worthless, nobody really considers them to be more than minor players, everything they do mimics AVN, no originality, nothing different except that AVN actually does have some editorials hidden among it’s press releases, and AVN’s Awards are considered to be the best of the best, even if it ain’t saying much.

But you should read this, and my hats off to Colin and Angie Rowntree whose employment contract this is.  It would be a great basis for a performer bill of rights and if done correctly it could bring positive attention to the industry from mainstream and from lawmakers, something that is sorely lacking these days.

Chanel/APAC…Please prove me wrong, get this in motion, If I can help in any way contact me. And Colin and Angie…Good job and thank you for the use of your written policies and procedures.

ON-SET POLICIES AND BEST PRACTICES

At Sssh and Wasteland, our goal is to make you feel comfortable and safe as a performer and to provide you an enjoyable work environment on each and every shoot. While making our movies is a professional endeavor and we take it seriously, we also want you to have fun.

We emphasize and encourage collaboration. The way we see it, you don’t work for us as a performer; instead, we are honored to have the opportunity to work together with you. We find that when performers are involved in creative decision making, it yields a better, more realistic and erotic scene, because your passion and commitment are translated to the viewer, making the entire production more enjoyable for everyone involved.

With those guiding principles in mind, here are the specific policies and best practices we adhere to – and if at any time you feel there’s a good policy which needs to be added, please tell us. We want these policies to be as effective and comprehensive as possible and we greatly value your feedback.

1/ The nature of individual scenes and the sex acts they require will be negotiated and agreed to before the day of the shoot.

2/ We will never ask a performer to do something that hasn’t been negotiated beforehand. As a performer, you ALWAYS have the absolute right to say “no” – even if what you’re saying no to is something you’ve already agreed to.

3/ If at any time you do not feel comfortable, you can stop any action, at any time. If you feel up to it, we will simply move forward and do something else. If you want to stop completely and not continue filming, for any reason, that’s fine too. It might be “our shoot,” but it’s your body and your mind; performer consent and enjoyment are paramount for both Sssh and Wasteland, so your choices and limits will always be respected and honored, without question. Again, we want you at all times to feel safe and have fun – so if for any reason you aren’t, just let us know.

4/ Pay rate will be set prior to the day of the shoot. While negotiating, please know that we pay a flat day rate and do not pay per scene, except where noted. We do not offer different pay rates for different sex acts or gender.

5/ We are always open to suggestions and changes to any storyline, skit or scene. We want you to “own your part”, and we love to hear feedback on how we can make your character stronger, better, and true to life.

6/ We want your chemistry with your scene partner to shine through, so if you’re not shooting with your “real life partner”, let’s talk and find a good match. If there’s someone you’ve always wanted to work with but never had the opportunity, we’ll reach out to them and try to bring them on board.

7/ Whether you have had STI tests, or are working with your real life partner, condom / barrier use is 100% up to you. We provide condoms / barriers for your use, and / or for the use with insertables.

8/ All toys and instruments you will be using for scene will be cleaned and disinfected. You also have the right to clean them yourselves, if you prefer.

9/ If you are not working with your real life partner, you have the right to see all STI tests prior to sexual contact.

10/ We provide a safe, clean and positive environment to work in.

11/ We have an alcohol and drug free set.  There are NO exceptions.

12/ You must be 21 or older to appear in content for any of our websites.

13/ Any medical conditions or concerns must be disclosed and discussed prior to hiring.

14/ If you’re working off a script (features only), you will receive a copy 2-4 weeks prior to the shoot.

ON-SET ADVOCATES

When you shoot with us, you will have an on-set advocate at all times.  Regardless of what was pre-negotiated, your advocate will call “pause” if you exhibit signs of being distressed, uncomfortable or if the advocate is concerned for any reason. Shooting will only resume after a check-in with you, and after both you and the advocate consent to continuing.

You can stop a shoot at any time by using your safe word or a pre-designated hand signal. All limits will be respected, and as with any of our shoots, you always have the absolute right to say “no.”

CANCELED SHOOTS

If you cancel a shoot during filming, we will work with you to alter the performance to something you are willing/able to complete. If no such arrangement can be reached, you will only be paid for completed scenes.

PRE AND POST-PERFORMANCE INTERVIEWS

Both to assure documentation of expressed consent and as a legal precaution designed to protect both performer and producer;
Wasteland will record pre and post-shoot interviews with performers. In some cases, portions of these interviews may be used in “behind the scenes” footage, as well, but the primary purpose is simply to document our agreement and to ensure you have been given every opportunity to consider your prospective performance and agree to all its details.

Sssh.com will record post-shoot interviews with performers and performers and directors will partake in a couple of short Special Features, such as a commentary for a Directors Cut and “Quick Question”.

MODEL RELEASES and 2257

Prior to each shoot, we will ask you to show us your state or federally issued photo ID that shows your date of birth as being older than 21 and complete our 2257 document.  After the completion of the shoot, you will be required to fill out and sign a model release which is a binding contract between you as a performer and we as a studio that will be distributing the works.

FOOD

At the time of booking, please let us know your food allergies, as well as your likes and dislikes.

Day Shoots

We will supply you with a full lunch.

If the shoot runs after 7 pm, you will be offered dinner

Beverages (including, but not limited to water, coffee, tea, hot chocolate, Gatorade, soft drinks) and healthy snacks are available at all times, including on-set.

Feature Shoots

For Feature shoots we provide 3 meals a day, plus snacks

Two weeks prior to a feature shoot, you will be emailed a daily menu.  Please let us know if you have any allergies to any menu items.  You will be offered a choice of; meat, fish or vegetarian  dish, please let us know what your preference is, at your earliest convenience .

Beverages (including, but not limited to water, coffee, tea, hot chocolate, Gatorade, soft drinks) and healthy snacks are available at all times, including on set.

MISC.

Performers are welcome to tweet from the set, if they choose. If you are taking pictures, please check with all of the crew that they consent to being in your photos for twitter, instagram, etc.

This is an ongoing process. If we are missing anything please tell us. We want these policies to be as effective and comprehensive as possible for both you and us, so we greatly value your feedback.

We are listed on EthicalPorn.org.

Questions? We are always here to talk.

Sssh.com – editor (at) sssh (dot) com
Wasteland – movies (at) wasteland (dot) com

47 Replies to “A Performer Bill of Rights”

  1. Karmafan

    So according to this a female talent won’t show up at the set and find out the b/g scene she was gonna do is now “surprise” a b/b/b/b/g?

  2. MikeSouth

    re read it
    1/ The nature of individual scenes and the sex acts they require will be negotiated and agreed to before the day of the shoot.

    2/ We will never ask a performer to do something that hasn’t been negotiated beforehand. As a performer, you ALWAYS have the absolute right to say “no” – even if what you’re saying no to is something you’ve already agreed to.

  3. Dirty Bob

    #4 (above) makes no sense. Same pay for guys and gals? Uh huh. Sure. And the pay is for a “day” rather than a scene – how many scenes are they gonna try to throw together in a day? And then later (under cancelled shoots) it says that they only pay for completed scenes. Confusing…

  4. Ivy

    @Dirtybob equal pay rate per day, not scene, and negotiations are completed the day prior to filming. So, they figure all that out (in theory) and have a general idea of how many scenes they’ll do and how long.

    Now, for cancelled shoots, that is for the talent’s well being. Say for example, if someone is uncomfortable or being injured on set, they are not going to penalize talent for stopping the shoot.
    Paid for completed scenes so they don’t walk out the door empty handed.

    I think these are great rules.

  5. LurkingReader

    Bingo…both of those are issues that bit Cybernet in the ass on their OSHA appeal. What I find impressuve is this BOR is put out by a NH company.

    1. They ruled performers were employees. This BOR (Bill of Rights) is intended to better define performers as IC (Independent Contractors)

    2. If performers are IC they say what they do.

    As far as this BOR goes performer best interests are an illusion. Hoping APAC (FSC) will step in is futile because their loyalty is to the folks paying their bills and that isn’t performers …its stakeholders.

  6. Skirm

    I like how craft services have been drafted into this porn performer’s bill of rights. “3 meals a day, healthy snacks and choice of beverage will be provided for feature shoots.” That’s pretty cool actually. Wondering if that means companies have been currently feeding their cast and crew cheese sandwiches and RC Cola on shoots, since budgets have become so low.

  7. joeschmoe

    I like the 21 or older rule.

    I know it will never fly because teen porn is such a huge money maker; but I still maintain someone 18 or 19 with no life experience is highly likely to be the one who is eaten up and spit out by the scummier side of the business.

    I like the part where the say the performer can say no to something they have already agreed to (hey , the thought and the reality can be different). Can’t imagine how many girls get bullied when they try to back out of something they agreed to, especially when they have already planned out where that money is going and are facing losing it.

    Giving performers the choice to wear a condom is a nice one; however, I would think most performers if they walk into a bareback set and say “condom please” won’t getting many calls from that director again. I am not sure how realistic that one is if you try to apply it on a wide scale. The reality is, Mike, condom porn is not in much demand. I support health and performers very strongly in my opinions, however I do mostly stick with watching bareback porn. I am sure people will call me a hypocrite for that; however sexual desires are often that way.

  8. joeschmoe

    I have often pondered what kind of food they are giving these days on porn sets……. is it like one of the staff running out for wendy’s burgers or something or do they actually provide good food that is healthy and takes care of your body. Eating healthy is pretty important if sex is your career.

  9. LurkingReader

    ICYMI…they aren’t planning to pay for tests see #7

    “Whether you have had STI tests, or are working with your real life partner, condom / barrier use is 100% up to you. We provide condoms / barriers for your use, and / or for the use with insertables.”

    “ON-SET ADVOCATES

    When you shoot with us, you will have an on-set advocate at all times. Regardless of what was pre-negotiated, your advocate will call “pause” if you exhibit signs of being distressed, uncomfortable or if the advocate is concerned for any reason. Shooting will only resume after a check-in with you, and after both you and the advocate consent to continuing.

    You can stop a shoot at any time by using your safe word or a pre-designated hand signal. All limits will be respected, and as with any of our shoots, you always have the absolute right to say “

    Kinda curious about the on-set advocates…
    * any job postings for them yet?
    * what are their qualifications?
    * who trains them? Seems important to a performer with bound hands and a ball gag or dick in their mouth….pre-arranged hand signals don’t work so well when their body obstructs the advocates view of hands…oops??? Tie a bell around your toes?? Hmm….tis the season for jingle bells….sex on toboggan suspended from basement rafters … sure complicates life when fully bound BDSM is real vs Hollywood illusion.
    Total tangent here & forgive me if filmed tobaggan sex is really a thing cuz brain a bit twisted in six-man toboggan ropes, support ridges …would the on-set advocate duties include waxing it when they aren’t dusting off the condom/barrier bowl checking for expiration dates and making up single use dildo/toy sanitizer packets for fussy DIY performers?

    On-set advocates are actually a really good idea if….
    * they are included or copied on all performer limit communications (likes/dislikes etc)
    * They aren’t tasked to other duties that would divert their attention from performer safety during filming.
    * They know how to be assertive with a dominant director
    * Stop means stop… it isn’t a negotiation. (yanking the emergency brake vs jump/how high)
    * Directors see the value of an on-set advocate and respect the role for what it is…it’s covering their ass more than any performers in the event something does go wrong…by prevent a event going wrong.

  10. Ivy

    @karmafan Look don’t take this as an insult, but me being real with you. If you refuse to watch condom porn, you need to be having more sex. It’s not so much that a dick needs to bare to feel good, it’s a woman’s “flinch” muscles in her vagina. That’s what makes sex all about it. It’s just juvenile to refuse to watch porn on the basis if there is a condom or not.
    Also, while lamb skin condoms provide ONLY pregnancy protection, they are condoms that feel like nothing.
    Another good brand is Lifestyle SKYN’s. For the longest time I didn’t know I was allergic to latex condoms. If you don’t enjoy condom sex either 1)Your not getting enough 2) Your using a latex condom on a woman who is allergic to it. And then there’s all kinds of lube, so you just aint doing it right if you don’t like condom sex.

  11. mharris127

    Joe, that varies by company (and director). Jacky at New Sensations said her set meals many times are Del Taco or Costco pizzas. Kink has full meals prepared by an actual trained chef and sous chef (you can try and figure out what they mean by “sous chef” — maybe that is a cute female chef trying to cut veggies with her hands cuffed tightly behind her or even hogtied from behind while Peter Acworth and a couple of the male directors masturbate and then cum on her ass, I don’t know). Intersec meals are at whatever restaurant PD wants to eat at that day.

  12. mharris127

    I would hope that for a bondage shoot someone is looking at the bound performer’s hands for hand signals or listening for the “uh, uh, uh uuuuuhhhhhh so that an uncomfortable bound/flogged/caned/gagged/chick with 18 inch fully-erect and cumming dick shoved down her throat /up her ass/in her pussy/crammed in her nose performer’s scene is paused to check in with her. 🙂

  13. Ivy

    @lurkingreader Those are all really good, really super important questions. If the on set advocates at SSH and Wasteland don’t already do all the things you mentioned, they SHOULD. What kind of skill sets would an on set advocate need to put in a resume? Based on your good idea list, your talking about someone who’s been around a while, can you just imagine if you put some nubile fresh out of high school person hired to fill the quota – and if you hire somebody with experience why would they chose to be a on set advocate over a performer?

    But then again, when I sit and think about it, there’s plenty of people who would work in the industry but don’t want to go on camera. There’s lighting and whatnot (never did Theater so my knowledge is kinda bare) but you get my drift.

  14. LurkingReader

    @Ivy

    Coulda, shoulda, woulda. Those are the three magic words behind every policy (rule) and contract clause. I wouldn’t even try to define which qualifications a set-advocate could include that should get them noticed or hired….that is entirely up to the stakeholder signing the check.

    This policy is all about the industry trying to stay ahead of the curve. Parts if not the whole BOR will be copy/pasted by other porn producers. The individuals at this company are more respected than the FSC right now which makes this best practice policy ideal more palatable on their letterhead than if FSC tried to present it as an authority.

    How this BOR is applied will depend entirely on the specific company using it. Currently the set-advocate duties as defined are unspoken (informal) commonsense expectations on every porn set. It’s probable that most company’s won’t hire set-advocates as a separate paid position even if they adopt the policy and assign the tasks to a specific individual or crew position on their sets.

    SSH and Kink might add payroll to their shoots because that’s cost effective for them as the cheaper alternative to defending a lawsuit against the perceived deep pockets. Mike might write up a set rule that one or more performers will rotate the duty and how they communicate the duty hand off. Some might add bells and buzzers to the position like basic First Aid or CPR training/certification.

  15. Karmafan

    Of course it just begs the question of why the FSC did not come forth with something like this? If the FSC is supposedly looking out for the talent then why didn’t they create a set of rules (BOR) for all porn sets to follow?

    They didn’t do it because either they are not looking out for the talent or the FSC has no real teeth or power in the industry.

  16. mharris127

    Actually it could be because Diane Duke and her kinky boyfriend supervisor were both incompetent boobs, maybe too busy boinking it up in Diane’s office to actually do their jobs.

    Speaking of that supervisor (I am getting my names mixed up here and don’t wish to name the wrong person so I won’t but longtime readers know who I am talking about), I wonder what happens if the board at FSC hires a man for her replacement now that Diane has flown the coop. Will this unnamed supervisor “turn” gay and demand to fuck the new FSC director up the ass or will he go cry in his beer and look for another job where he can con a (supposedly) female subordinate into allowing him to shove his dick into her ass and down her throat while she is suspended from the ceiling (part of the accusations that flew were Diane and Mr. Supervisor banging each other at a kinky sex club)? Also, will the FSC maintenance crew take down the sex hooks in Diane’s old office or will they remain in perpetuity? 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂

    I would like to see the look on Mr. Kinky Sex Harasser if Mike South gets the FSC director’s job — there isn’t any possibly bi- or tri-sexual man (tri-sexual meaning men who like women, trannies and other guys and if Diane Duke isn’t actually an in the closet transvestite I would be highly surprised) coming within ten feet of Mike with its kinky sex harasser dick out without Mr. Likes to Fuck Women Like Diane Duke Who Look Like Trannies eating either a mouth full of Mike’s special blend of lead buckshot soaked in arsenic straight from the barrel of his .45 pistol or his ugly woman fucking teeth loosened by Mike’s fist wearing a glove with lead shot in the knuckles! Please videotape that encounter if it does take place, that tape would be priceless.

    The last two paragraphs are intended as parody, satirizing the past couple of years at the FSC. No one will be filling anyone’s mouth full of lead soaked in arsenic and Diane Duke is (supposedly) not actually a tranny, she just looks like one. It is the Christmas season and my gift to Mike and this blog’s readers is howling laughter. Merry Christmas, Happy New Year and may Diane Duke find a job as a janitor, Rob Black’s personal dick sucker and cum mopper at Extreme Associates (Rob Black’s studio).

  17. mharris127

    Skirm, from what I have been reading lately the on-set meals some companies provide nowadays are either BYO or chips, veggie stick platter with dip and canned, warm Mountain Dew. Years ago for one movie Bud Lee had salmon fillets and several side dishes with appropriate non-alcoholic drinks for lunch (according to that movie’s BTS), even in the early 2000’s that had to cost Adam and Eve (Bud’s then employer) a fortune!

  18. joeschmoe

    @ivy

    It is not juvenile to want to see bareback porn. As men, we know the difference in feeling and so we want to see that. It is not so much refusing to watch condoms, but more that we want to see what we want to do in our real lives.

    You can go on about flinch muscles, and the worlds thinnest condoms…… it still, and please take my word for this, feels much different.. both physically and emotionally to go bareback. And while guys project this image of only caring about the physical , there is an emotional click when we are having sex with someone without anything in between….. it is a much more amazing experience.

    Can we have great sex with condoms.. sure, can we say we are happy wearing one .. sure……… however, there will be very few men when being honest would say that there is no difference between using one and not using one.. even with the most fancy super space tech world’s thinnest condom.

    Porn is about watching things performed for us that we fantasize about in our minds, or want in our personal lives. That includes not having to use condoms. There is an emotional construct as to why we need to be bareback and it is not a juvenile piece of behavior. It really is a deeper thing that women don’t always understand and they just think a guy is reckless or doesn’t care about health or whatever it may be without thinking why we need to feel that way.

  19. joeschmoe

    @ivy Part 2

    you are a great poster with a lot to say, I love reading your posts. However, I think throwing the “you aren’t getting enough” insult out there is really immature and not consistent with who you are on this forum. It is much more than that and a man wanting to enjoy bareback sex is not about whether he is a socially awkward guy who can’t get a girl into bed. And it isn’t about “not liking” condom sex…… as I said in the other reply, there is a difference regardless of what you may think, that goes beyond the pure physical. We can like and enjoy sex with condoms, that doesn’t mean that is our ultimate preference and watching porn is about seeing the best sex you desire.

    There are reasons condom porn sells less, and it is not just a broad brush that male porn fans are juveniles who can’t get laid in their personal life. (although there are plenty like that I am sure , there are plenty that are a much different case)

  20. mharris127

    Actually I gave up booze nine years ago (and never cared for eggnog, not enough kick to it — I preferred Crown Royal on the rocks without a mixer myself). However, my medication kicked in especially hard tonight so I feel about the same as if I had about ten drinks. Don’t get congestive heart failure (ironically caused partially from too much booze when I was younger), the resulting medications fuck with blood pressure and when it gets low weird things happen — especially when combined with medications for other health issues. I will be fine in the morning. I do think I am funnier than Ron White tonight, though (my favorite living comedian — although I wish Sam Kinnison was still around, if you don’t know who they is Google their names).

  21. mharris127

    Never having been married and not having had condomless sex in decades I really cannot attest to how sex is without one. The closest I can come to is masturbating and there is a difference in feel there IMO. However, I don’t want any biological children and don’t wish to get AIDS so I use one every time I have sex (yes, I ask about any latex and nonoxynol-9 allergies before attempting sex). If both my partner of the night and I had 1-13 day old negative VD tests from a recognized lab and I knew with reasonable certainty that she didn’t fuck anyone else without the same 1-13 day old negative VD test and was either past menopause or on Depo-Provera I might consider fucking without a rubber.

    Bringing this into the porn realm (as performers are faced with the same decision whether to use or not use a condom), other than maybe Nina Hartley who is about 55 and maybe Maitresse Madeline who is likely 51-52 menopause is not likely to be a factor in porn (even Julia Ann is only 48-49, Shay Fox and Veronica Avluv are close to or at that age with Simone Sonay about 44-45) — menopause takes place at about 50-52). I don’t know how women in porn prove their birth control status, maybe they get a letter from their doctor when they get their Depo-Provera shot — I know I would ask, even if the baby is conceived during a porn scene (I only know of once where that has happened, to Alana Evans) the man is legally responsible for child support — whether a man can go back on State Fund to pay the child support for a set-conceived baby no one knows (unfortunately Alana had her baby “aborted” before it was born so not only was an innocent baby killed precedent was not set as to who pays the child support in the end — the male talent or State Fund or if State Fund could push or even get a court order for an “abortion” to get out of paying 18 years of child support costing $200K or more by the time the kid grows up).

  22. LurkingReader

    @mharris

    Eggnog was acknowledging silly vacillating snuff plot via seasonal reference. I have a congenial heart condition so it concerns me that you’re saying you’re having symptoms and blowing them off till morning. Hypoxia can feel euphoric and I don’t need to tell you why it wouldn’t be a good idea to blow it off till morning if it’s new or something you haven’t addressed w/ your doc. Prefer that you were enjoying yourself indulging in spiked eggnog but willing to settle for doing what you gotta do to take care of yourself to keep treating us to your kinky spin on porn 🙂

  23. Ivy

    @joeschmoe My comments come from a place supporting condom advocacy. I know realistically in porn, “condoms optional” is like saying, “Yeah sure go ahead ask for a condom, see what happens”. I also really believe that condom use in porn is a very important for society, destigmitizing the myth that the only good sex is bareback sex. I also come from a standpoint where I favor worker’s rights, and those rights include sexual health. Now we know the porn grapevine goes pretty far, if there is ever a reason a porn performer would want to use a condom, I’m just gonna guess there is a pretty good reason.
    You are welcome to your opinion of bare back sex, I don’t doubt for one second that if a man had a choice between bareback and condom, bareback would be the more popular choice. But it isn’t just about men fantasizing about sex and what it feels like and an “emotional” “girlfriend experience”. I assume you are a responsible man, in charge of your own sexual health. I congratulate you for that. But what about the women? Should a woman performer forgo her sexual health just because the male performer demands it? I think that’s shitty. For the female audience, isn’t it good to see condoms in porn? If for whatever reason, if they are afraid to ask for condoms in their real life sex life, isn’t it good to see condom sex in porn? Does it make condoms more normal? And what about the young men growing up on porn, how do you think condoms in porn will influence their decision to use condoms in the future? Ok, so condoms affects sales. Big deal! Who are all these people who say F that I want some REAL RAW PORN? Hmmm I dunno about you, but I think those people are untrustworthy.
    I’m in a nonmonagamous relationship right now, and let me tell you, this guy has never once hesitated or even balked at condom use, if I request it. I can say that from personal experience, it’s HIM as a really good passionate lover, that makes condom use so good. So, my comment “your doing it wrong” comes from that place. Believe me, I think a lot of porn fans are so entitled and selfish, that it is my sincere belief that more condom use is good for every body.

  24. Ivy

    @joeschmoe And I wanted to go back to my use of the word juvenile, which I noticed you took issue with. You may not like my use of the word, or its connotation, but that doesn’t mean that I am not justified in using that word. I try not to be hostile on Mike’s page, despite many seething emotions that I may or may not feel while reading and commenting, but I make an effort to be a classy lady when possible.
    That being said: I (like we all do) comment and write words based on our own experience. Now, to give you more of an idea of where I come from (completely not necessary, but I’d like to bridge the gap wherever any misunderstanding may occur).
    I’ve been having sex for 15 years, give or take, and since day one I have always put a condom in purse. I always demanded that each new partner wear a condom. Can’t recall any that actually turned down my condom request, because when it comes down to getting laid, I think these guys would rather have sex with a condom, than not have sex at all. Most of my sex partners have been men, and yes to be fair I’ve never requested a dental dam with women (although I did think about it one time). So is that…fair gender wise? No actually, and you would be right to call me out on that. I have tended to put more trust on women based on anatomy. If I were truly gender equal I would have made more requests from women, for personal protection.
    And, I can tell you from experience that the men I HATE hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate having sex with the most is the guys who ask, “Can I just put it in? Just for a second? Please just let me put it in” (Without a condom). Not only did those men NOT do a good job pleasing me, but the sex made no difference in pleasure with a condom or without. Of course the guy goes to town and thinks he is a freaking rock star.
    Based on my personal experience, I have learned to place very solid boundaries, and that includes MUST use condom with new partners. Anyone who doesn’t like that, well don’t let the door hit your ass on the way out. Again, not once in my 40+ partners (men) have ever turned down sex because I requested a condom, and it just so happens from my anecdotal personal data, that I just so happen to hate men who ask “can I PLEASE put it in raw” despite the fact that is a request that steps over my boundaries. Yeah. Call me hostile all ya want.
    Finally, i do not think ALL condoms should be mandated for ALL porn. I think it’s healthy that there is a strong market for bare back porn, I totally get it and understand that fact, despite the fact that I do not have a penis.
    However, my take is that condom use in porn should be normalized as much as possible, because in my mind condom sex does not make sex any less sexy. It’s all about your sexual partner, how they do it, how they take care of their needs as well as their partners needs. When I do not request a man wear a condom, that means that man did not give me an STI, and that I trust him. Having bare back sex, allows me as a woman, to let a man enter a sacred space, in my mind. It allows me develop trust, it allows me to have better sex when the man is fully aware of what I need. A man who doesn’t respect my needs, is not a man I am interested in having sex with. And that’s just my take. Feel free to have all the bare back sex you want, I ain’t trying to rain on your parade.

  25. mharris127

    Already discussed, Lurk — and I know when to call EMS. I do know the difference between a medication reaction (you would faint if you saw the list of meds I have to take every day) and a heart attack or lungs filling up with fluid. I am feeling “better” now, thank you for your concern — although I have to admit used to be fun drinking about a half-fifth of whiskey and overall having a good time and last night sort of reminded me of those times without spending $25 for that fifth of booze.

    Merry Christmas and enjoy that eggnog along with a few homemade sugar or chocolate chip cookies. Our Christmas party is Saturday where we are having Famous Recipe fried chicken with their excellent fried chicken gizzards, buttermilk biscuits and cole slaw and exchanging gifts.

  26. Karmafan

    Sounded good until you mentioned Fried Chicken Gizzards.

    Fried Chicken = Yes, Gizzards = no.

    I’m baking French Meat Pies tomorrow to go to our family get together on 12/25.

  27. LurkingReader

    @mharris

    Wouldn’t faint…might make a spread sheet for you though. Still haven’t forgotten the year it took to wean kid off 16 different drugs spread over 28 daily doses. Sorta like maintaining a mini pharmacy 😉

    Lol on 1/2 fifth feeling…I might need a full fifth before we work out Christmas here there & everywhere w/I 2hr radius and 2 sets of in-laws. One thing is sure…I’m doing prime rib for dinner.

  28. LurkingReader

    @karma

    We have Italian cookies and Swedish almond spritz for trade …don’t even think about pawning off mharris grizzards 😉

  29. joeschmoe

    @ivy
    I don’t think you got my point but that is ok. Your response to me was discussing men who try to talk you into bareback or something like that and I am not sure where that comes from in relation to my points. I was not criticizing your choice to use condoms in your personal life (I didn’t even want to know what you did, that wasn’t the point I was making).

    I was simply saying my opinion why men pefer bareback sex and countering your claim that it should be the same with a condom due to the woman’s actions and the thin-ness of the condom. (it isn’t) I never said men should refuse condom sex ( I wouldn’t) or should be trying to talk you out of it. (they shouldn’t)

    I can tell you that in all my years of dating, relationships, single, and not single.. .I have only met one woman who would say she preferred condoms over bareback sex. Women use them because they want to protect themselves, yet most would agree bareback is better even just from an emotionally connected perspective. Hence why people want to see it in porn.

    Anyways, I still maintain that you are wrong in saying that by preferring to see bareback sex on camera automatically means we are juvenile or are not getting sex in our personal lives. If you wish to keep that perception you are welcome to, we can agree to disagree on that one. Its just is no better than the common social media insult “haters gonna hate” or “you have no life” when someone has a legitimate critique. It doesn’t have any real meaning other than to attempt to put down someone who is debating you with opinions you happen to not like.

    Porn will not die if there are condoms in the scenes. However, as long as there are bareback alternatives, condom porn will always be #2. That is just the way it is when people are faced with choices and where to put their sexual energy and fantasies.

  30. Ivy

    @joeschmoe I have really tried my best to be patient with you, and maybe you should reread what you wrote to me to see maybe if there was anything that you said that may have prompted my response.

    Since I know you won’t actually go back and think about it, I can make it simple for you:

    “However, I think throwing the “you aren’t getting enough” insult out there is really immature and not consistent with who you are on this forum.”

    I find it insulting that you think that I didn’t understand your point. We can agree to disagree, but I thoughtfully wrote out a post and you have no qualms telling me that I don’t get it. Thanks.

  31. joeschmoe

    There is nothing thoughtful about making insults about people’s sex life when you don’t agree with them. It is immature and childish social media behavior. I am sorry you can’t see that.

  32. joeschmoe

    and based on your posting history, you are better than that. That is why I called you out in it. You don’t need to resort to silly social media insults to get your points across.

  33. mharris127

    How about Joe and Ivy going at it with a ladder (need to get to the hanging hooks in the ceiling somehow), some silk rope, a cattle prod, whip, cane, a pair of handcuffs and Princess Donna?

  34. LurkingReader

    @mharris

    LOL Wasn’t saying or even thinking they needed a director or referee or even suggesting they ‘get a room’ was curious how many big an assortment they’d need to dump on each other before their condom challenge was complete.

    Note to self….innocent social media references aren’t safely uttered around Kinky dirty old men minds 🙂

  35. joeschmoe

    There’s nothing to work out and there is no debate about condoms between us. I just felt that an intelligent poster like Ivy should be called out for using the “you aren’t getting any” insult when disagreeing with someone liking bareback porn. It’s cheesy and cheap and she is better than that. I don’t think there should be any more to it than that. She launched into her life story about how she uses condoms with everyone (which her personal life had nothing to do with my point in the first place), which didn’t make a lot of sense.

    who cares, she won’t get respect for her opinions if she can’t handle someone else’s opinion without firing out childish social media insults. Let’s move on folks, I called her out for it and said my peace. I wasn’t doing it to start a war on Mike’s blog 🙂

  36. LurkingReader

    @Joe

    Blame my kid for showing me too many…you gotta see this ..15 second social media clip thingies of people dropping water balloon condoms on heads.

  37. Ivy

    @joeschmoe I know you think you are “teaching me something”, I assume your a man, I just wonder if your done man-splaing to me yet. Knock it off.

  38. MikeSouth

    OK I get that porn is a lot like religion people like what they like and theres nothing wrong with anything so long as its two consenting adults. lets not try to convert each other…there’s no need. Ive often said that as vocal as I am about the things I believe and support it would make me crazy if everyone agreed with me. its ok to agree to disagree, hell i do it all the time with my best friends even. I would bet that if we all met in the same place for a “get together” that we would all be friendly and nice to each other, Its easy to escalate on a forum but in person we tend to realize that we have more in common than not which by and large brings us together in the first place.

    I learn things from you guys all the time, I dont post in the comments much because I have my say and its in the post and the last thing I want to seem like here is any sort of dictator or even leader because it is about learning from you guys, even if I disagree I often see your points and am totally ok that while I may not agree I have learned something. Thats what the comments should be.

    I really do love you guys, all of you its amazing that technology has brought us to the point that even though we may be half way around the world we can communicate with each other without government oversight, instantly as though we are all in the same room, I think that in the long run it will do much to bring the world together, whether its the world of porn or religion or just the world in general because as I said we come to the realization that we are all more alike than not.

    Lets remember and keep that in mind, I know that nobody in this thread or on this forum means any harm to anyone else, any more than I do.

    Lets not become aggressive just because of a minor difference or two.

    Thanks Y’all

  39. joeschmoe

    final reply to Ivys…

    someone like yourself isn’t teachable, you think you have all the answers and insult people who think differently than you. There was no reason for me to ever think I was teaching you anything.

    I called it out, you can’t handle that..cool. Let’s move on. I certainly can’t take your opinions seriously anymore when you act that way so you will be better off not having to discuss things with me anymore.

    Not sure what gender has to do with anything other than you thinking guys who view things different than you must be deprived in their personal lives because you can’t fathom that you are not always right.

    I posted here because there was a lot of talk here without all the immature social media nonsense. Unfortunately, that has gone out the window.. As you can see, I hate people pulling out the “social media insult greatest hits collection” and don’t invest my time in places that do that.

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