@Cpan
Not sure why you feel the need to distort what’s presented to you but glad it won me a case of very expensive wine. Below is the last I’ll say to you on this issue.

“Can you show me other cases where it happened in 4 visits?”
It wouldn’t matter if I did, your mind about this case would still be made up.

“We still don’t know what the doctors notes are and we never will. As a result, you are making assumptions based on little data.”
As are you.

“Four seems short for me as well, but we are in no way experts and being around kids doesn’t make one an expert at all on transgendered issues unless you were working as a psychologist or MD with transgendered kids.”
What I’m assuming is that you’re unaware of how your misguided efforts to protect is marginalizing instead. That in your world my 20+ years child development training as well as 15+ policy development for mandated reporter (teacher/coaches) and working with hundreds of PhD/MD is somehow invalidated because of your LGBT goals.

“You are assuming that the doctor wasn’t able to verify info from a kid that was hiding it from all.”
Am I? Aren’t you assuming that there was something to verify?

“We have no idea of the discussion between the two. What if the 16 year old was able to show years of this behavior through online accounts on their phone including pictures that no one else knew about?”
“What if they have photos dating back to when they were 10 of them dressed as a boy? What about a long history of posting on transgendered forums online? What about a secret facebook account that shows dates going way back?”
Wow that’s a lot of ‘what if’ assumptions you’ve just offered.

“You simply don’t know and as a result are calling the system a sham, infringing on rights, and calling the doctor a hack.”
Really now, if this your take it’s easy to see that were are never going to be dinner buddies…truly I said this case didn’t follow protocol, there is the potential for abuse that would infringe on parental rights and IIRC YOU are the one who initially took issue with the doc.

“I’m giving the kid the benefit of the doubt. It is a possibility. Provide evidence that the kid wasn’t transgendered and I’ll agree with you.”
Did you miss my first comment siding with the kid? The ends don’t justify the means. That simple fact seems lost on you.

“If four visits was the standard number for all cases then I would agree with you.”
So because they don’t always skirt protocol you’re okay they did it this time?

“This case doesn’t mention suicide because we don’t know what the doctor’s notes say. I’m referring to all of the other cases out there because a high percentage will considering the high rate of cases for the transgendered. That’s documented. Look it up. That is one thing we can see.”
Perhaps it’s time for you to look into all the ways gender dysphoric kids are just like other kids trying to assert their independence, sense of self (outside gender) and all kinds of other general child development stuff along with the usual requirements/process to merit government intervention. It seems you are forgetting this was a government crisis intervention.

“Sensationalism due to one case?”
Would you feel better if government abandoning their policy were the norm and not sensational?

“My attachment to this post is the inferred “agenda”. That concept is damaging and somewhat just holds us back as a people. If it wasn’t for that line of thinking then government intervention wouldn’t be needed.”
While you’ve done little to negate the agenda presented in the original article, you’ve done much to validate it.

“The furtherance to the acceptance of all types is only considered an “agenda” when you are against the types in question. Would one call womens rights “female propaganda”? Well, only if you were against it in some form.”
Recognizing something an agenda isn’t always about quashing, negating or minimizing its worth. The LGBT agenda of quashing critical/non-supportive articles in media is a verifiable fact as is article quashing by political groups and many other orgs.

“I understand your line of thinking against government intervention and I truly can say until it happens to me personally what opinion as to right or wrong can I have?”
So as long as LBGT as a ‘people’ aren’t marginalized you’re okay with non-LGBT being marginalized…no I don’t think you do understand my position that government policy like this exists to avoid marginalizing ANYONE by giving no side preference.

“I do not fully know the people in question or their situation. I’m not a doctor either. Now, if the girl didn’t open up from the start and in the last 30 minutes of the last session stated that they were transgendered… Well, yeah. That wouldn’t be right.”
Since we don’t know…how fair is it for you to automatically assume the mother is a liar about how this case was handled…that her concerns are irrelevant and somehow negated because her kid is getting needed treatment?

“I agree with a lot of what you say as I’ve said before. We agree on a lot more than you think. Just because I don’t agree with you or Payne on this doesn’t mean I can’t on other issues. I think you have a lot of good stuff to say and Payne’s post today was an entertaining read.”
Agree or not with his subject matter Payne is able to convey clear detailed articles that makes them worth reading.

@lurking

Can you show me other cases where it happened in 4 visits?

We still don’t know what the doctors notes are and we never will. As a result, you are making assumptions based on little data. Four seems short for me as well, but we are in no way experts and being around kids doesn’t make one an expert at all on transgendered issues unless you were working as a psychologist or MD with transgendered kids.

You are assuming that the doctor wasn’t able to verify info from a kid that was hiding it from all. We have no idea of the discussion between the two. What if the 16 year old was able to show years of this behavior through online accounts on their phone including pictures that no one else knew about?

What if they have photos dating back to when they were 10 of them dressed as a boy? What about a long history of posting on transgendered forums online? What about a secret facebook account that shows dates going way back?

You simply don’t know and as a result are calling the system a sham, infringing on rights, and calling the doctor a hack.

I’m giving the kid the benefit of the doubt. It is a possibility. Provide evidence that the kid wasn’t transgendered and I’ll agree with you.

If four visits was the standard number for all cases then I would agree with you.

This case doesn’t mention suicide because we don’t know what the doctor’s notes say. I’m referring to all of the other cases out there because a high percentage will considering the high rate of cases for the transgendered. That’s documented. Look it up. That is one thing we can see.

Sensationalism due to one case?

My attachment to this post is the inferred “agenda”. That concept is damaging and somewhat just holds us back as a people. If it wasn’t for that line of thinking then government intervention wouldn’t be needed.

The furtherance to the acceptance of all types is only considered an “agenda” when you are against the types in question. Would one call womens rights “female propaganda”? Well, only if you were against it in some form.

I understand your line of thinking against government intervention and I truly can say until it happens to me personally what opinion as to right or wrong can I have? I do not fully know the people in question or their situation. I’m not a doctor either. Now, if the girl didn’t open up from the start and in the last 30 minutes of the last session stated that they were transgendered… Well, yeah. That wouldn’t be right.

I agree with a lot of what you say as I’ve said before. We agree on a lot more than you think. Just because I don’t agree with you or Payne on this doesn’t mean I can’t on other issues. I think you have a lot of good stuff to say and Payne’s post today was an entertaining read.

@cpan

So you’re okay given the information about THIS case; that the government decided based on four visits (intended to address rebellion) as sufficient to diagnose and initiate treatment for formerly undisclosed gender dysphoria. Perhaps you might have convinced me or others of this by focusing on the ways undisclosed gender dysphoria is linked to rebellious behavior vs depression & suicide.

Were you asking if I’m qualified to say four sessions with a teen isn’t enough to take the actions taken or were you asking for qualifications to diagnose formerly undisclosed transgender? “And once again, while we both think 4 visits was too little are we qualified to make that claim?” your response to my qualification to know and understand teens indicates dissatisfaction with my response. Would you take the same stance if this were a case where a rebellion referral led to teenager being placed into a long/life term drug treatment program for previously undisclosed drug use? Are you suggesting that beyond issues related to gender dysphoria that transsexual children and teens are different than the 2000+ I have experience with?

Please tell me where THIS case ever mentions suicide, depression or self-harm beyond your ideas.

Very few parents want to own lots of things their children embrace and choose to pursue…removing gender dysphoria this case highlights the fact that the government can and will usurp parental rights while still enforcing parental liability without due process based on little more than a child’s say so.

Here’s my problem with your assumption that THIS child required what amounts to crisis intervening gender dysphoria treatment & was being harmed w/o that treatment…the child chose not disclose to school counselors prior to this event where the same help would have been pursued with the added benefit of child/family counseling to address overwhelming gender issues including communication fears and possibly unrelated rebellion. Even if the child opted to avoid parental disapproval there are well publicized avenues of informational safe places for teens to address gender issues which NHS would have referenced if there had been a relevant foundation beyond those four visits.

It was clear from the start that we would disagree, that you are unable to see past the gender dysphoria treatment offered in this case and my assertion that it doesn’t matter if it was gender, drugs or any other issue.. My experience with teens is the first visit is taken up with initial intake process and most kids rebelling against parental authority aren’t quick to open up & trust other authority figures so it seems unlikely the remaining three sessions were primarily about how gender dysphoria was affecting this kids life. My take is on visit four when the kid finally took the risk of disclosure; the counselor decided gender dysphoria was outside their treatment expertise making the referral to Tavistock essentially clearing a case file. This method gives a kid risking disclosure mixed messages of a fairy godmother government and no need for therapy to address the rebellion prompting NHS crisis intervention. Perhaps you’re okay with trained professionals sending the message that transgender causes rebellion the way hiding the truth causes suicide, self-harm & depression?

If we were talking about a child who sought this treatment vs government intervention I’d be much more in synch with your views. Would you have dispersed with the distort, deflect and defame if you knew about the referrals to gender counselors made to several of the 2000+ kids I’ve had the pleasure to work with?

Finally, while you’re able to see the sensationalism in Payne’s article, everyone is able to see the attachment you have to the subject matter as well as your sensational use of related mental health issues. My neighbors have enjoyed this debate and paid up with a case of superior wine for losing the bet that you’d see logic over emotion. Tyvm and apologies to those who feel taken in with the unknown motivator to my participation in this drawn out debate 🙂

@lurking

I understand Payne saying that as he fills it with sensationalism based on misinformation. I think it is an extremely poor example of government going too far.

Because you are a mother and coached children you know of transgendered issues and how to properly diagnose them to say a medical doctor with degrees was incorrect without reading his conclusions? You’re an amazing individual.

Having suicidal thoughts is not rebellion. It is one feeling very little self-worth to the point they don’t want to live. That’s not rebellion. Just because someone is a straight-A student doesn’t mean they aren’t suicidal. Just because someone has a good relationship with the parents doesn’t mean they aren’t suicidal. A lot of times people won’t tell others or show signs. A lot don’t cut themselves.

Governments already do a lot.

Not providing this could cause more harm. If parents were always correct given instances such as this then I could agree with what you are saying. They rarely are. Very few parents embrace the fact that their boy wants to be a girl. The kid then suffers. That’s awesome, isn’t? Fuck the gov.

We are going to disagree on it. I view this up there with everything else a child can do at 16 without the consent of the parents. Transgendered kids is more taboo though because a dad can find it hard to live vicariously through his son that wants to be a woman. Most naturally object even if it is best for the kid.

@Cpan
Payne’s post is using this case as an example of the government going too far…I agree with that because protocol was not followed. I also think the counselor and Tavistock placed the undisclosed gender dysphoria ahead of the primary issues that prompted their involvement. While I’m not prepared to hang my hat on NHS/Tavistock an example of a LGBT agenda the potential for abuse in these situations is too high for comfort.

Where I got my info…now we get to the LGBT agenda to ferociously quash spoken and/or published opinion pieces critical or non-supportive of LGBT lifestyle and issues to the point of having the following three media source articles removed, BBC & Telegraph May 2014 & the Daily Mail article sourced above. So I’m unable to give you direct quotes on which I base my assertion that she was not level headed beyond the fact that this intervention began with a referral for behavioral issues.

Now what am I missing…what exactly are you basing your assertion that she was level headed and had no issues beyond undisclosed gender dysphoria? BTW assigning depression in your first comment contradicts the level headed stance as does the depth of relating suicidal ideations where none have been directly sourced.

Again you missed the point about using a ‘known aka celebrity’ name as context after criticizing Payne for doing the same. To his credit he didn’t smear their names in efforts to show his derision to the referenced events.

“And once again, while we both think 4 visits was too little are we qualified to make that claim?”
As a mother of two post-adolescent children with over ten years of teaching and coaching over 2000 children ages 6-16 YES I feel qualified to make this statement. As someone who actually researches policy for situations that irk me, again the answer is emphatically YES! Are you somehow qualified to say otherwise? Did you miss “Perhaps the first visit was sufficient to spot the gender issues but to make a diagnosis and act upon it as the primary diagnosis within four visits is certainly against medical protocols, which is where the government intervention fell through.” Do you expect different responses to the same questions?

Instead of ripping you a virtual asshole with all the distorted or misinformation you have presented and I’ve referenced for arguments sake, here is the link to NHS gender dysphoria Diagnosis and treatment.
http://www.nhsdirect.wales.nhs.uk/encyclopaedia/g/article/genderdysphoria/
please notice under Teenagers & Adults:
“Without appropriate help and support, some people may try to suppress their feelings and attempt to live the life of their biological sex. Ultimately, however, most people are unable to keep this up.
Having or suppressing these feelings is often very difficult to deal with and, as a result, many transsexuals and people with gender dysphoria experience depression, self-harm or suicidal thoughts.”
(hence my early comments about the rebellion that prompted NHS involvement as a byproduct of living a lie.) Depression, self-harm and suicidal thoughts are listed as distinctly separate medical issues to be addressed. Rather than rely solely on common sense I actually checked (with a doc currently practicing in the UK) to see if NHS offered crisis intervention for gender dysphoria whose response was ‘We don’t consider gender dysphoria to be a medical crisis. We often refer patients with concurrent mental health or behavioral issues for crisis intervention.”
From your first comments to me your stance that this girl was a good candidate for gender dysphoria treatment has been singing to the choir, despite my stance that she wasn’t level headed. I maintain concerns that without proper pre-assessment and prior treatment for other mental/behavioral issues referrals to Tavistock are premature.

Lastly: Despite acknowledging errors handling this case are you absolutely unwilling/unable to see concerns many have that NHS has the ability to mistakenly offer gender dysphoria treatment to a teenager whose ‘undisclosed’ gender issues were not disclosed because they never existed….until a very serious mental illness has a kid latching onto a standard assessment question about gender issues as ‘something they haven’t tried..yet” to fit in?

@lurking

Discussing Payne’s post, comments, and the issue of the girl.

How do you come to the conclusion she wasn’t levelheaded?

Is there info I’m missing or are you just assuming?

What are her behavior issues that are negative? Wanting to be transgendered isn’t a negative behavior issue.

I wasn’t using Monica as a way to make it sound like I was OK with someone. Now, if I would have said, “I love black people! I read Monica’s site” then my comment could be compared to Payne’s.

And once again, while we both think 4 visits was too little are we qualified to make that claim?

Are we discussing your issues with Payne’s article? Are you singing to the choir about this girl? Your rants are all over the place and very difficult to respond to.
Payne took what he want and left the rest just as you are doing. Before this got into such a detailed debate I read the source articles as well checked out BBC and a few others. Please refer back to my early comments which included the child possibly hiding gender issues to keep mom happy.

From the start I have focused on the undisclosed, undocumented gender issues without questioning their validity. We both agree four visits were not enough, is my focus on rebellion your next avenue of attack? This isn’t a debate about the validity of her gender issues, it is about how the government handled a behavior intervention. Are you trying to suggest that equal access medical laws to treat gender issues take precedence over concurrent behavioral issues? That’s how it seems.

Relying on consistent reports I’m standing by the ‘child was rebellious to the point of required intervention’ and see it as a byproduct of the poor communication/coping skills vs a direct byproduct of the undisclosed gender issues. The fact that there are issues that caused this child to act out inappropriately in addition to causes that prevented this child from disclosing gender dysphoria needed to be addressed long before the referral to Tavistock. In fact by not addressing these issues distinctly there is the real possibility this child will blame gender dysphoria for the social issues precipitating government intervention rather than embrace and empower herself with effective coping skills to ease her RLE and forward.

Obviously I don’t think she was levelheaded, nor do I see this as a cause or prerequisite to gender issues that I consider distinctly separate. As to how many visits to the doc it would take I haven’t a clue. Perhaps the first visit was sufficient to spot the gender issues but to make a diagnosis and act upon it as the primary diagnosis within four visits is certainly against medical protocols, which is where the government intervention fell through. Keep in mind this is a case where someone other than the mother called Social Services for a behavioral intervention vs a teen who sought help for gender issues.

Because the child nor family sought the treatment offered many can & will see gender reassignment as a government offer to cure teen behavioral issues. Make no mistake about it; the government offered this girl gender reassignment support in the alternative to providing her/family behavioral therapy. Had the government offered concurrent supplemental child/family behavioral therapy with Tavistock this wouldn’t be the issue it is for me. While the hormones can be reversible, do you think her behavioral issues are just as reversible without treatment?

Laverne Cox is an example of surviving the self-loathing all too common with gender issues. That deep seated despair doesn’t magically go away which is borne out with too many TG post-surgical suicides. This is my greatest concern with cases like this where the government intents are at odds with their actions.

“Since when was Moronica “Camming for Christ” Foster a celebrity?”

Didn’t say she was, said your use of this reference was ‘odd’ given the issues you presented about his celebrity references. The similarity is that you both used named references to illustrate a point you were making. Some might say there’s some psychology behind the defensive posture in restating your objections to his celebrity references while adding a kicker to the repeat use of a derogatory named reference.

@Lurking

It is sensationalism. These are not “sex change” drugs. Payne is entitled to feel whatever he wants, but when his views are based on skewed info then what purpose do the views serve other than providing misinformation?

Go and read the article from the Daily Mail. Payne left stuff out. The daughter said she hid this from her mom for years in order to save her family strife because she knew they wouldn’t understand. The parents are upset that their view of their daughter and the feminism the mother shared is now lost. Rightfully so too. However, shit happens in life. That happens when you have a kid. You can’t plan for it.

You don’t know that the daughter is being rebellious. I was rebellious as a kid. I smoked, drank, did drugs, had weird hair, wore goofy clothes, and didn’t do what my parents told me to do.

When one is rebellious they don’t think, “I’m going to be the opposite gender. That will show them”. People usually think that when they feel as though they are in fact the opposite gender.

Part of rebelling does not consist of something that will leave you open to extreme ridicule among your peers. That’s counterproductive.

It is something more than rebellion and I honestly feel you are over-simplifying the situation by stating they were rebellious. Being transgendered is in fact something that will make you rebel.

It is not a symptom, but rather a cause for rebellion.

You are assuming the daughter wasn’t level-headed. While I think 4 visits to a doc is too short the girl could have proved beyond a reasonable doubt that this is what she wanted. I think even if she was able to do so more visits should happen, but that is not my area of expertise.

Ask yourself this.

What number of visits would the daughter need with the doctor for the parents to approve of the decision the daughter made with the doctor?

I really don’t see the parents saying “Well, she’s had 4 visits once a week for 6 months. She must really be a boy.”

I am going to assume that they would always be against the decision considering granny claimed she wouldn’t acknowledge it. 😉

Just claiming you are transgendered isn’t enough to call it rebellious behavior in this situation.

We don’t even know what the doctor’s assessment was considering we haven’t read it. We just made ourselves doctors and said it wasn’t enough. 😉

This law happened because someone viewed the situation logically. No one is doing experiments on children. These drugs have been used in other instances with no harm. This is not an experiment. This instance isn’t even a sex change. This is no where close to Tuskegee. When I said doctors aren’t doing experiments I was referring to this case.

HPV vaccinations. Those are given to kids too. A 16 year old can get those without parents consent.

This just stops puberty. It doesn’t have anything to do with them even having sex like an HPV vaccination does.

These drugs do not change gender. These drugs are reversible. RLE is a trial done to ensure that the person actually wants to be transgendered. Once that is confirmed then the hormone replacements are given. Giving the hormone replacements during RLE would rule out a need for RLE. If during RLE the daughter doesn’t want to be a male then it can stop and she’ll go back to be a female.

Turning 18 and having your body already form isn’t reversible. As a result a lot of transgendered people go through extreme reconstructive surgeries to undo what puberty did. It really never works. Their suicide rates are high.

Payne likes to bring up Laverne Cox, but Laverne Cox attempted suicide at age 11. Ask any psychologist and they’ll tell you that an 11 year old making honest attempts at suicide is extremely abnormal. That shouldn’t be happening. Something extreme was happening in her life that she couldn’t deal with. He is a she now and she is doing extremely well.

What if risks of suicide can be lessened and transgendered people can live life in a body that is more suited for them?

It is just like the girl that wants to have sex at 16 without risk of getting pregnant against the parents wishes.

An instance of life being unable to form because of ovulation being blocked isn’t reversible.

One can undo this. It doesn’t change gender.

“Mom, I am a boy.”

“Honey, you can be whatever you want to be when you turn 18.”

Kids are killing themselves because of that.

Payne’s celebrity references were foolish. He claimed when he saw a gay person on the big screen he didn’t walk out. Do racist rednecks turn off the Super Bowl when a black guy appears on TV? No.

For Payne to think that an example showing that he had nothing against gays consisted of him being fine with seeing them in a movie is HORRIBLE. Someone who is OK with gays wouldn’t even think to use that as an example.

“Rob Halford was gay and I love Judas Priest”

Yeah, why wouldn’t a metal fan love Priest?

(I can understand not liking everything after Defenders minus Painkiller)

There is a little bit of psychology there. Why would someone make that statement?

“I loved these actors and these musicians even though they are gay.” That’s what he said in a nutshell.

He even commented on how he didn’t walk out as that being an instance that would even occur in someones mind.

I don’t know if that is laughable or sad.

Since when was Moronica “Camming for Christ” Foster a celebrity?

@cpan

Primary point I tried making was that Payne is just as entitled to his bias as you are to yours. Trying to nit-pick the ideas you have about marginalized gender dysphoric kids in no way invalidates the agenda Payne presented.
“Comparing what is happening in London with transgendered kids is no where close to the Tuskegee experiment. That trivializes the victims’ experiences.”
Context is everything, and in no way was this offered as a comparison. It was offered to refute your claim that “doctors are like Frankenstein working in dungeons doing bizarre experiments is where the bullshit lies.” Further it proves there is basis to self-interested docs having garnered Government blessing and/or participated Government initiated human experiments. I offered two US examples yet there are hundreds worldwide.
“I totally get what you are saying. I don’t agree that this is a form of malicious government turning people into ladyboys and I don’t view this as a gender war. That’s stretching it Moronica Foster style.”
Seriously doubt you get I’m saying: despite the good that can come from Governments offering interventions and medical services there must be checks and balances to the process. This case clearly shows a failure to balance parental rights with what may be a teen whim chosen in an ‘effort to fit in.” Your outright denial that this case could be a power of suggestion by a misguided if not malicious therapist is just as dangerous as parents who deny their child’s obvious gender dysphoria. To deny that a therapist merely asking standard questions could suggest a ‘fit in option’ to a rebellious teen struggling to fit in and seeing it as a possible niche is as foolish and shortsighted as assuming kids at 16 aren’t able to genuinely discern gender dysphoria.
For someone bothered by Payne’s celebrity references your use of “Moronica Foster” reference comes across as odd.

@lurking

No, but saying someone is too young at 16 to decide gender is kinda foolish unless one is transgendered themselves. It goes like this:

“Mom, I’m transgendered.”

“Honey, no you are not.”

How would mom know? I think the daughter is a more reliable source since the mom isn’t living in the daughter’s body.

As for the denial:

“You’ll always be my granddaughter.”

That doesn’t sound like someone who stands behind the transgendered daughter, now does it? The grandmother is refusing to accept it.

Comparing what is happening in London with transgendered kids is no where close to the Tuskegee experiment. That trivializes the victims’ experiences.

How is this really all that different from doctors allowing 16 year olds to take birth control when the parents don’t want it? One stops puberty and the other makes changes to the womb and allows a period. Kills potential life too. What if a parent doesn’t want their daughter having sex at 16 or want the government giving them medicine to hinder certain issues that could arise? What about at age 14? They only have to go to one visit and no therapy at all.

I guess pumping people full of hormones is only good if you agree with the reason.

I’ve already said only 4 visits is wrong, but preventing something because of one case would be foolish. 1 death is too many when it comes to guns. Banning guns won’t help.

I totally get what you are saying. I don’t agree that this is a form of malicious government turning people into ladyboys and I don’t view this as a gender war. That’s stretching it Moronica Foster style.